There were more Males than Females.

[_ajax18]

How anyone could see BY's marriage to teenagers as young as 15 as an older adult male, and still think he was called of God is another good take on the brainwashing Mormons undergo in order to accept such a horrible reality.

I don't think it's simple lust for every Mormon who believes in polygamy. Religion can make people do strange things. I heard there was actually a man in UT who thought God had told him to sacrifice his son like Abraham was told to sacrifice Isaac, only he went through with it. I don't think he wanted to do this because he didn't like his son. I think he really thought God told him to do this.

Just like I don't think that Moslems are simply blood thirsty killers. I think they really believed that God told them to crash their planes into the towers. But people still desire to find meaning in life and know the truth. So religion will always be here. Unfortunately we're going to mess some things up in our search for peace and truth.

[_antishock8]

Ajax,

I agree with Beastie. Women might hook up with a man for financial gain, but nail some other dudes for their babybatter... Hell, they most likely just wanted BY's money, perhaps what little status that afforded, and then fooled around whenever the urge set upon them. Women have just as strong as a sex drive as men, even if their priorities don't seem as tied to it as it does with men. However, no one is above scoring some easy scratch. BY got to have sex with a variety of females on occasion, and the females got something in return to whatever degree. Maybe there was a good dental plan... I don't know...

[_ajax18]

Just because evolution seems to point us towards a certain behavior does not mean that behavior will bring happiness. In fact, happiness can sometimes result from understanding our urges enough to not give in to them.

Sometimes, but I understand a fat man's point. He told me he once was able to get down to 180 lbs, but he was always hungry and unhappy. Now he's 360 lbs., but as far as he's concerned he's happier. Perhaps he'll die 10 years sooner, but whose to say what life is better.

So Beastie are you saying that a young woman with a rich ugly husband would have a desire to cheat with a handsome young man? I'm just curious because I'm still learning on this one. I know there must have been some problem with this anceintly otherwise we wouldn't see the death threats for adultery. I'm just curious as to what drives women because I think they are wired a little differently. Do you think women in these ridiculously large brothels ever wanted to cheat for just sex? How would this sex drive compare with the strength of the survival drive and doing what it takes to have your needs taken care of?

For example, I've noticed in men (animal and human) that their sex drive may even exceed their survival drive.

[_ajax18]

Women have just as strong as a sex drive as men, even if their priorities don't seem as tied to it as it does with men.

I disagree.

and the females got something in return to whatever degree.

Well that's how it works with rich men today (goods for services), but I'm afraid in BY's case and other Old Testament societies they probably used fear and mind control as much as any pretended financial benefits. While BYs wives may have wanted to cheat, it's hard for me to imagine it happening very often. I think he would have killed them for it.

[_ajax18]

the answer is simple: there is no god.

I didn't say atheism didn't have some philosophical advantages.

[_beastie]

So Beastie are you saying that a young woman with a rich ugly husband would have a desire to cheat with a handsome young man? I'm just curious because I'm still learning on this one. I know there must have been some problem with this anceintly otherwise we wouldn't see the death threats for adultery. I'm just curious as to what drives women because I think they are wired a little differently. Do you think women in these ridiculously large brothels ever wanted to cheat for just sex? How would this sex drive compare with the strength of the survival drive and doing what it takes to have your needs taken care of?

For example, I've noticed in men (animal and human) that their sex drive may even exceed their survival drive.

Of course a young woman with a rich, old, ugly husband would have a desire to cheat with a handsome young man, although she, like men, may refrain from acting on impulse and desire. Everything about human biology (which I don't have time to go into in detail right now, maybe later today) points to the fact that human females, historically, have been prone to cheat and cuckold their primary mate. And OF COURSE women in brothels/harems want to cheat - that's why, historically, they have been closely guarded by EUNUCHS.

Yes, there are some general differences between male and female sex drives (it would make no sense, evolutionarily, for a female's sex drive to exceed their drive to survive... a male is more "expendable" for obvious reasons), but there are more variances in sex drive WITHIN each gender than BETWEEN the genders.

The sexless, sainted female is a myth cultivated by males in order to make them feel that their chances of being cuckolded are minimal. In reality, studies show that the percentage of cuckolded males is actually significant (If I recall correctly, one study put it at 30%).

[_truth dancer]

It REALLY frustrates me when guys seem to somehow think women would be fine without sex, or with maybe sex one a month or whatever. AARRGHHH.

Guys that continually discuss how wonderful polygamy would be seem TOTALLY unconcerned with women, their needs, desires, or cares. (Yeah, I think this is largely because this is taught).

The reality is women can enjoy sex much more frequently than men.

If one wants to use nature to prove something it would be that WOMEN have evolved to have several partners, not men. Men are much more limited in this area. (smile)

OK... guess what, humans have evolved to PAIR BOND. Period. It is true in virtually EVERY society on this planet.

Research by Helen Fisher shows that virtually all humans pair bond and of these about fifty percent of MEN and WOMEN cheat

In other words, given equal opportunities, women cheat as much as men.

The ridiculous myth that men are more sexual, or that women don't like sex, or that men evolved to want sex more than women, or whatever other nonsense guys come up with is, in my opinion, just some false belief to get them feeling like an Alpha Male... or something. (sigh)

Yeah, in a culture when girls are sexually abused by older men, chances are their sex drive is absent (toward their abuser). This isn't rocket science here. Also in a society where women aren't allowed out of the house, or are mutilated, or are denied opportunities to pick a partner, they most likely are not too interested in sex with whomever they are forced to have sex with.

This says nothing about the FACT that women are sexual beings.

Human culture has not been friendly to women, and the myth that women don't have sexual needs and desires is a damaging belief started by some powerful men to keep women subservient and degraded.

Can we get into the real world...

~dancer~

[_antishock8]

Women have just as strong as a sex drive as men, even if their priorities don't seem as tied to it as it does with men.

I disagree.

On what basis? Without getting into it, I've read dozens of books ranging from the anecdotal through postmodern Feminism. I've been close, intimate friends with dozens of women from all stripes, and their sexuality really isn't all that different from our sexuality. I've also had lots and lots and lots of sex with lots of women. Guess what? Many times I've undersexed my partners. On a few occasions I've been with women that could have sex 5 times a day, and imagine my only wanting sex two or three times a week and how that goes over with them. Sure, there are generalities that seem to apply to both sexes, but the bottom line is Kinsey was right when he suggested human sexuality exists on grey scale and we all fall somewhere along the line with very undefined parameters.

Anyway, I think women can have far more partners than us, and enjoy far more sex (to include having far more orgasms than we could ever hope to have) than most men really care to think about, or admit. Once a woman is unconstrained by social convention this seems to be the case more often than not, at least that's what I've observed from direct experience. Good for them...

and the females got something in return to whatever degree.

Well that's how it works with rich men today (goods for services), but I'm afraid in BY's case and other Old Testament societies they probably used fear and mind control as much as any pretended financial benefits. While BYs wives may have wanted to cheat, it's hard for me to imagine it happening very often. I think he would have killed them for it.

I understand we're both speculating how things were and what their motivations were, but I'm pretty sure you're not giving women enough credit. Though, after seeing the women-children of the FLDS compound, I tend to think you may be closer to the mark than I am. BY era Utah was not a utopia. Far from it. [/quote]

[_Jason Bourne]

This "men have to be married to girls and women so they can take care of them" is such nonsense I don't even know how it is said in seriousness.

Like human beings can't help those in need?

Like a father wouldn't take care of his fifteen year old daughter?

Like brothers and sisters don't help their siblings?

Like one has to be married to someone to help them out?

What does it say about a group of men who won't help the needy unless they are MARRIED to them?

And what about the boys and men who needed help? Were they not helped because the guys couldn't marry them?

And this silly argument assumes men took care of their wives... what nonsense. The women were for all intents and purposes single women, trying to raise their children alone, working a farm, living in poverty without a decent husband but sexually attached to a man.

~dancer~

The main reason for eternal marriage in LDS eyes is it is required for exaltation. In LDS doctrine men and women must be sealed to receive God's highest reward. So if there really was an abundance of faithful women to men then that could be one reason for polygamy. The woman needed some man to be sealed to to be exalted.

This is likely one reason why today a woman who is sealed then divorced is not granted a sealing cancellation until she is ready to be sealed again to another man. Maybe that sealing, even though she is divorced for this life, somehow sticks to exalt her.

Also if polygamy is legalized should the Church practice it again. It sure seems like there are still more faithful single women in the Church then faithful single men.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

No he did not. His net worth if I recall was about $250,000 when he died.

If so, being prophet was financially rewarding, wasn't it?

If I recall correctly, there were some legal difficulties extricating BY's property from the church's property.

Arrington discusses the issue of inheritance, etc. at the end of BY: American Moses. I didn't see a million dollar debt there, as was claimed by a poster in this thread, so I'd like to know the source of that figure so I can check it out and see where Arrington missed it.