How does the LDS church get away with it?

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_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

truth dancer wrote:
I find men who destroy women repellant too. I don't know a man good enough to NEVER hurt their wife just like I don't know any women good enough to NEVER hurt their husband. The best grow and avoid it as much as possible. I just don't think that that naturally occurs simply because there is plural marriage or polygyny.


Yes, I should rephrase my statement.

I don't think men who love their wives purposely, consciously choose to engage in behavior that they know will hurt their wives.

As you said, we try to avoid hurting our loved ones as much as possible. Men sleeping around with other women are not the kind of men who truly love or care for their wives.

~dancer~


Yes, but many of the LDS were not 'sleeping around'. Their wives accepted and consented. Heck, in the case of my g-g-grandmother, she chose the second wife. While you may find the practice distasteful, it is not like they were all sneaking out and having affairs.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

bcspace wrote:
I'm saying the practice of polygyny is abusive.


How so?


Oh, Lord, you REALLY asked TD that question?

I could answer, but why have all the fun? TD?

;)
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

bcspace wrote:
As opposed to monogamy where the man has/owns only one wife?


TD (and others) seems to be operating from the notion that plural marriage equates to abuse. I'm still looking for evidence that that is the case. Surely plural marriage is not for sexual reasons as all the sex one wants can be had for free and without commitment without having to engage in plural marriage.


Sure, sex can be had for free, but sex in plural marriage seems to be quite a profit-making endeavor, at least as practiced by some of the Mormon offshoot cults. There's a lot of money in those, not that the women/children get to see much of it. Plural marriage is for sex and power, which working together can create quite a favorable climate for abuse. Commitment doesn't exactly seem to be their strong suit either.

The one thing polygamy isn't about is the will of God.
_Inconceivable
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Post by _Inconceivable »

TD,

Tell us what you really think about this topic.



: )
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Inconceivable wrote:TD,

Tell us what you really think about this topic.



: )


I think she's trying to fish out of me an invitation to join my personal harem but is just shy. ;)
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Riddle me this..

Post by _Jason Bourne »

My bride is now divorced from me eternally (because of my resignation) - but we are still married civilly.


Actually if she has not cancelled the sealing it is technically still in force.
What should I do if she were to fall in love with a real tool and they inform me they are to marry in the temple for eternity - just not for TIME?


One cannot be married civilly to someone and get married for eternity only these days.
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

bcspace wrote: Surely plural marriage is not for sexual reasons as all the sex one wants can be had for free and without commitment without having to engage in plural marriage.


With the proviso that one becomes a rock star.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_mbeesley
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Post by _mbeesley »

The problem with truthdancer's OP, and continued insistence that the Church is being disingenous with its statements about polygamy is that she is using terms rather more loosely than the Church uses them.

For the Church, the term marriage refers to a legal and binding commitment between a man and a woman. There is no such thing as a spiritual marriage in the Church. That is an FLDS term that she is trying to impose on the Church. Truthdancer is confusing the concept of sealing with marriage. The differences between a sealing and a marriage should be obvious to anyone with a rudimentary understanding of Church policies and practices. Only married person may engage in sexual relations without violating the law of chastity. People who are sealed to one another but who are not married may not do so. The Church does not use the term eternal marriage when it refers to couples who may have been sealed but are divorced.

So, while it is true that a man may be sealed to more than one living woman, he can only be married to one woman.

The eternal significance of being sealed to more than one woman is not really clear. People who consider the question with a purely temporal view risk making the same mistake truthdancer does in assuming that it has something do with sex. But the truth is, we do not know how spirit children are created. We nothing of the conception and birth of such children. What we do know is that Heavenly Father has said that His ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts. Left with that, any suggestion that spirit beings are created in the same manner as temporal beings is speculative and rather useless.
Cogito ergo sum.
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi MB...

The problem with truthdancer's OP, and continued insistence that the Church is being disingenous with its statements about polygamy is that she is using terms rather more loosely than the Church uses them.


Well, I think the church uses various terms to present an untruth.

The church absolutely does believe in, and practice (to some extent) polygyny. To suggest it doesn't is disingenuous in my opinion.

For the Church, the term marriage refers to a legal and binding commitment between a man and a woman. There is no such thing as a spiritual marriage in the Church. That is an FLDS term that she is trying to impose on the Church.


Well, then lets go with whatever term you like... "sealing" if fine. (To be honest, it is frustrating to constantly have to play the definition game. We all know that LDS men were sealed to multiple women as wives). Nevertheless.... :-)

The point is, LDS doctrine in fact allows for men to have multiple women in heaven, it allows for men to be sealed to multiple women simultaneously while the women are alive, and clearly states in the D&C that men can have multiple women (sealed, spiritually married, plural marriage, whatever). Again for the LDS church to pretend that this is not true is disingenuous in my opinion.


Truthdancer is confusing the concept of sealing with marriage.


Again, to pretend that men are/were not sealed as husband and wives is to not be honest. (I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about the church). I'm not confusing the two at all.

The differences between a sealing and a marriage should be obvious to anyone with a rudimentary understanding of Church policies and practices.


Are you suggesting that Dallin Oaks doesn't think he will have two wives in the next life? Last I heard the LDS church believes a sealing means a man and woman (women) will be together in the CK, no?

Only married person may engage in sexual relations without violating the law of chastity. People who are sealed to one another but who are not married may not do so. The Church does not use the term eternal marriage when it refers to couples who may have been sealed but are divorced.


We are splitting hairs here. Women who are civilly divorced without a sealing cancellation are ETERNALLY SEALED to a man. There can be multiple women sealed to these men as husbands and wives. Again, ask Dallin Oaks. :-)

The thing is, FLDS women claim that they are NOT married to men who father their children, nor do they live with them, but ARE sealed (spiritually married) to these men. How is this different than what goes on in the LDS church? Now, obviously the living arrangements appear different between the FLDS and LDS for those in the know, but the point is, again, for the LDS church to claim they have nothing to do with polygamy is clearly misrepresenting the truth.

So, while it is true that a man may be sealed to more than one living woman, he can only be married to one woman.


Exactly as it is in the FLDS church. Exactly as it was in the early days of the LDS church. One legal marriage, multiple women on the side (spiritually married, eternally sealed, whatever term you want to use).

The eternal significance of being sealed to more than one woman is not really clear. People who consider the question with a purely temporal view risk making the same mistake truthdancer does in assuming that it has something do with sex.


No, take the sex out of it if you want. The point is, LDS men can be sealed to multiple women and as far as I know, the doctrine is that men can have multiple "wives" in eternity. Many LDS men believe they will have multiple wives in heaven do they not? Many women desperately want a sealing cancellation from their X husbands, but the church won't grant it to them hence they are sealed to a man they want nothing to do with. The man can remarry (without a sealing cancellation) and have multiple women sealed to him for eternity, just like other polygamous male members of the early LDS church.

My whole point is, the LDS church is not being honest in claiming that their church has nothing to do with polygamy. And, I find it amazing that no reporters have even looked into this.

If the LDS church wants to distance itself from polygamy, they need to change some doctrine/practice/teachings. I have a feeling that within twenty years there will be some changes. Anyone want to bet? ;-)

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Maxrep
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Post by _Maxrep »

TD,

A group of four church friends were all gathered socially late one evening. We had a few fringe members there. Polygamy surfaced as a topic. I stated what problems I saw in this type of union, while the two others present couldn't wait for its modern day return. Apparantly they had already spoken with their spouses, and to varying degrees, have pointed out suitable sisters who might do as a plural wifes within their own households - window shopping maybe? - go figure I guess...

My very good friend walks in from the kitchen into this gathering. He is then asked if his wife and he had discussed what it would be like to select a 2nd wife to join their family?

This well spoken buddy of mine quickly replied, "I wouldn't degrade my wife by bringing this topic to her". What a stallion. I hope his wife had her ear with a glass pressed to the wall.
I don't expect to see same-sex marriage in Utah within my lifetime. - Scott Lloyd, Oct 23 2013
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