To What Extent Do Apologists Influence Doctrine?

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_Rollo Tomasi
_Emeritus
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Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

Daniel Peterson wrote:There was never an official "doctrine" that the last Nephite battle occurred in upstate New York.

You're wrong, according to Mike Watson writing on behalf of the First Presidency (see his letter on the first page of this thread).

There was, for obvious reasons, a widespread commonsense assumption that it did.

Wrong again -- see Watson letter above.

When examined, that assumption is found to rest upon less than compelling grounds.

Interesting -- I've never heard of 150+ years of LDS prophets referred to as "less than compelling grounds."

The sun doesn't actually rise and set, diseases are often caused by essentially invisible little creatures, the earth is not flat, the MIddle Ages were not a time of cultural and intellectual stagnation, maggots don't appear via spontaneous generation, time is not abolute, government management of the economy doesn't actually lead to more rational allocation of resources, matter is not solid, Sanskrit and Scots Gaelic are related, light is both particle and wave, etc.

Your statement, when applied to the context of the question here, utterly negates the need for "prophets, seers, and revelators," who (according to you) apparently get it 'wrong' just like everyone else.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_guy sajer
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Post by _guy sajer »

Daniel Peterson wrote:There was never an official "doctrine" that the last Nephite battle occurred in upstate New York.

There was, for obvious reasons, a widespread commonsense assumption that it did.

When examined, that assumption is found to rest upon less than compelling grounds. (It finds no support, for example, in the text of the Book of Mormon.)

A major contribution in any field of scholarship is when commonsense assumptions are revised or when the evidence leads them to be abandoned.

The sun doesn't actually rise and set, diseases are often caused by essentially invisible little creatures, the earth is not flat, the MIddle Ages were not a time of cultural and intellectual stagnation, maggots don't appear via spontaneous generation, time is not abolute, government management of the economy doesn't actually lead to more rational allocation of resources, matter is not solid, Sanskrit and Scots Gaelic are related, light is both particle and wave, etc.

I'm perfectly happy if and to the extent that LDS scholarship is leading us to be more careful and precise in our claims and in distinguishing between what we know and what we don't know. That's exactly what it should do. But there is no basis to any suppositon that Bill Hamblin somehow compelled Michael Watson to retract the statement in his first letter, or that the Maxwell Institute has some sort of leverage over the First Presidency.


Apparently, Dan, several generations of Prophets and apostles, including Joseph Smith who learned first hand from angelic visitors, find that the assumption rests on quite compelling grounds. The current batch of 'inspired' Prophet and apostles also find that the assumption rests on compelling grounds. The vast majority of Mormon rank and file membership also find that the assumption rests on compelling grounds.

So, I am wondering, Dan, can you please explain to us why you understand this so much better than all of them? Why do you posses greater insight than God's elect, including one who spoke directly to God and to ancients inhabitants of the land described in the Book of Mormon?

Why, nearly 200 years after the fact, do you understand that nature of what Moroni told Joseph Smith about the Book of Mormon lands and peoples better than Joseph Smith did at the time he conversed with this angelic messenger of God?

That said, I am willing to accept your claim that modern scholarship can call into question other widespread commonsense assumptions long held by Mormon prophets and apostles and rank and file membership. But how committed are you really to this proposition? Are you willing to allow modern scholarship to call into question the veracity of the First Vision, the origin of the Book of Mormon, the roots of polygamy, the character of Joseph Smith, etc.? My sense is that you are not. Your avowed dedication to modern scholarship is phony.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

Daniel Peterson wrote:There was never an official "doctrine" that the last Nephite battle occurred in upstate New York.

There was, for obvious reasons, a widespread commonsense assumption that it did.

When examined, that assumption is found to rest upon less than compelling grounds. (It finds no support, for example, in the text of the Book of Mormon.)

A major contribution in any field of scholarship is when commonsense assumptions are revised or when the evidence leads them to be abandoned.

The sun doesn't actually rise and set, diseases are often caused by essentially invisible little creatures, the earth is not flat, the MIddle Ages were not a time of cultural and intellectual stagnation, maggots don't appear via spontaneous generation, time is not abolute, government management of the economy doesn't actually lead to more rational allocation of resources, matter is not solid, Sanskrit and Scots Gaelic are related, light is both particle and wave, etc.

I'm perfectly happy if and to the extent that LDS scholarship is leading us to be more careful and precise in our claims and in distinguishing between what we know and what we don't know. That's exactly what it should do. But there is no basis to any suppositon that Bill Hamblin somehow compelled Michael Watson to retract the statement in his first letter, or that the Maxwell Institute has some sort of leverage over the First Presidency.


Dannyboy, I would respond to this but quite frankly the utility of doing so would be much less than the return, that being your continued statements clarifying your position of shill. When will you return to Mormonism instead of this wishywashy bull you currently have concocted in order to protect the church's long-term investments?
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_John Larsen
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Post by _John Larsen »

Rollo Tomasi wrote:Your statement, when applied to the context of the question here, utterly negates the need for "prophets, seers, and revelators," who (according to you) apparently get it 'wrong' just like everyone else.



For me this is the great disconnect of Mormonism. Mormonism is "Truth Restored" in the abstract, but when one look at the details--it can't be bothered to be pinned down. Mormonism is supposed to have repackaged Christianity by filling in all of the gaps, but when you open the box it is the same soap flakes even though on the outside it says "New and Improved!"
_Dr. Shades
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Post by _Dr. Shades »

Mercury wrote:Two Words: Primary and Among


Don't you mean Principal and Among?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_guy sajer
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Post by _guy sajer »

Rollo Tomasi wrote:Your statement, when applied to the context of the question here, utterly negates the need for "prophets, seers, and revelators," who (according to you) apparently get it 'wrong' just like everyone else.


In contrast to 'prophets, seers, and revelators,' however, Dan gets it right. Who needs prophets, seers, and revelators when we've got Dan?
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

I think Joseph Smith is to blame for the misconception that the church provides more than the "philosophies of men mingled with scripture".

:-(

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Mercury wrote:Two Words: Primary and Among


Don't you mean Principal and Among?


OK, I'm awake now. early morning posting before my coffee is dangerous.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_Dr. Shades
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Post by _Dr. Shades »

Mercury wrote:OK, I'm awake now. early morning posting before my coffee is dangerous.


Hence Chap's confusion, methinks. I, too, was confused--I thought you were referring to the church's Primary program for kids.

Truth Dancer wrote:The FP and GAs do not want letters written to them. If member have questions they are to go to their bishops. I have heard of many examples of people writing to the Brethren with questions, only to have their letters forwarded to their Bishops. It has made for some serious awkwardness for those who are not aware of this practice.


That's just it: The Brethren didn't just refer Ronnie Sparks' letter to his Bishop. They actually answered Sparks' letter, but sent the answer to Bishop Brooks instead of directly to Sparks himself.

It's sort of like me writing a letter to my grandparents, only to have my grandparents send their response to my parents, telling my parents to pass the word along to me. Why not just mail the response to me directly?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_TAK
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Post by _TAK »

As to Bro. Sparks question...

I suspect this was not his first inquiry into the topic being directed to the first presidency and the response directed to the bishop was the attempt of Bro. Watson to end the questions.
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