I will Believe the Book of Mormon as history when...

[_Ray A]

Peterson,

Your fly is open.

That's not very kind.

[_Inconceivable]

Peterson,

Your fly is open.

That's not very kind.

I can't recall what that phrase means in Australian. But when Yanks say it, it's a thoughtful way of recommending the offending party cover up lest he brings humiliation and embarrassment upon himself.

He ought to thank me, but we all know he's not the type to take notice even when people are pointing and gigling.

[_Ray A]

He ought to thank me, but we all know he's not the type to take notice even when people are pointing and gigling.

I think he takes more notice than may be recognised here. I think he's acutely aware of things, including his own shortcomings, but because people hound him all the time he naturally goes defensive.

You've expressed some very worthy sentiments otherwise, but I had hoped you'd never join the throng of "Peterson bashers".

Hopefully there can be some kind of dialogue, but it won't be achieved by attacking "Peterson".

[_Inconceivable]

G'day Ray,

Thanks for the compliment.

Yes, Peterson is acutely aware of things as he ought to be - including the fact that he prefers to ignore the tough questions and deflect from them through irony, sarcasm and condescending statements laced with dull humor. I prefer to attack his method since he demonstrates so little substance on the board (regardless of who he is or what he does in other places).

Regardless, a man that sets himself up as a light can easily be burned by his own flame when his motives need refinement.

Peterson,

If you can't honestly answer a question (or are unwilling to), you'll be better respected to admit it and go on. Otherwise you are the target and it can get personal.

[_Ray A]

Yes, Peterson is acutely aware of things as he ought to be - including the fact that he prefers to ignore the tough questions and deflect from them through irony, sarcasm and condescending statements laced with dull humor. I prefer to attack his method since he demonstrates so little substance on the board (regardless of who he is or what he does in other places).

Regardless, a man that sets himself up as a light can easily be burned by his own flame when his motives need refinement.

I think that's a fair enough statement, and coming from you I give it more weight. It's a lot more descriptive than one-line pejoratives, anyway.

Have a good night, all.

[_Mahonri]

Joseph Smith made bold declarations of 'fact' about Book of Mormon/Nephite/Lamanite locations, people and events. He stated that all Truth was part of the Gospel he taught and part of the Church he was leading.
What happened?
The Bible has hundreds of locations/events/people that can be accounted for with independent histories and archaeological evidence.

Why isn't a civilization that numbered in the millions, with battles that killed hundreds of thousands able to be seen from even ONE archaelogical site?

We have the 'reformed egyptian' characters as copied by Joseph Smith. Isn't a linguist or translation specialist able to come close to corroborating these?
How about the reinternment site of Zelph, the great warrior?
Or the site of the City of Manti, the southernmost city of the Nephite Civilization? (as stated by Joseph Smith during Zions Camp)

A civilization that wrote on gold tablets, had written language, smelted metals, had wheeled carts, fine linens and silks, rode horses and numbered in the millions must have left SOMETHING to be found?!

If Joseph Smith could travel the countryside finding evidences and remains of the Lamanites and Nephites what is wrong with the guys who followed him? Faith is fine but history is history and evidence is left by every civilization, even primitive ones. Where is any evidence that these folk ever lived, much less numbered in the millions and had a great civilization.

The current batch of idiots and their 'evidence' remind me of the stories kids make up to explain why their homework isn't done. At least the idiots who make good money coming up with fanciful explanations have not yet stooped to the level of 'we have perfect proof, but a big dog ate it'. Maybe that is coming?

[_Inconceivable]

1) Joseph Smith made bold declarations of 'fact' about Book of Mormon/Nephite/Lamanite locations, people and events. He stated that all Truth was part of the Gospel he taught and part of the Church he was leading.
What happened?

2) If Joseph Smith could travel the countryside finding evidences and remains of the Lamanites and Nephites what is wrong with the guys who followed him?

3) At least the idiots who make good money coming up with fanciful explanations have not yet stooped to the level of 'we have perfect proof, but a big dog ate it'. Maybe that is coming?

1) Great reminder. Every member is taught to believe this doctrine. This is the definition of a TBM. NOM's and apologists are not TBM's. They are apostates (as I am). The difference is that I have resigned. Ask me why.

2) Amazing that the only historian that has ever located and confirmed evidence of the Mormon civilization is the one that wrote the gibberish attributed to as reformed egyption. Interesting that none of his claims can now be substantiated.

3) The "idiots" infer that the homework has been done (although no one sees what they can see - scholars and all, you know). They refer to the homework as if it has been graded and given an A+. When in reality it all gets a floggin' "F" for fiction.

[_Joey]

Joseph Smith made bold declarations of 'fact' about Book of Mormon/Nephite/Lamanite locations, people and events. He stated that all Truth was part of the Gospel he taught and part of the Church he was leading.
What happened?
The Bible has hundreds of locations/events/people that can be accounted for with independent histories and archaeological evidence.

Why isn't a civilization that numbered in the millions, with battles that killed hundreds of thousands able to be seen from even ONE archaelogical site?

We have the 'reformed egyptian' characters as copied by Joseph Smith. Isn't a linguist or translation specialist able to come close to corroborating these?
How about the reinternment site of Zelph, the great warrior?
Or the site of the City of Manti, the southernmost city of the Nephite Civilization? (as stated by Joseph Smith during Zions Camp)

A civilization that wrote on gold tablets, had written language, smelted metals, had wheeled carts, fine linens and silks, rode horses and numbered in the millions must have left SOMETHING to be found?!

If Joseph Smith could travel the countryside finding evidences and remains of the Lamanites and Nephites what is wrong with the guys who followed him? Faith is fine but history is history and evidence is left by every civilization, even primitive ones. Where is any evidence that these folk ever lived, much less numbered in the millions and had a great civilization.

The current batch of idiots and their 'evidence' remind me of the stories kids make up to explain why their homework isn't done. At least the idiots who make good money coming up with fanciful explanations have not yet stooped to the level of 'we have perfect proof, but a big dog ate it'. Maybe that is coming?

"But wait", they cry from Provo, "we have the works of Clark and Sorenson"!

[_Daniel Peterson]

"But wait", they cry from Provo, "we have the works of Clark and Sorenson"!

Ta dum ta dum ta dum ta dum he and his drum.

You're plainly obsessed with Provo, Pal Joey. I'm sure it seems pretty glamorous when seen from Lower Dogpatch.

he prefers to ignore the tough questions and deflect from them through irony, sarcasm and condescending statements laced with dull humor.

Anybody who's read what I've published (with even minimal fairmindedness) knows that that's not true.

I suppose Peterson finally answered the question. The only place on earth where there is an accredited history program that colors fiction with historicity [sic] - BYU.

Pal Joey asked for an example. I gave him one. That's all that he asked for.

Earlier, Pal Joey asked for an example of a non-Mormon academic venue that has published pro-Book of Mormon arguments. I gave him one (Oxford University Press). Mission accomplished -- but never a word of thanks.

[_Inconceivable]

he prefers to ignore the tough questions and deflect from them through irony, sarcasm and condescending statements laced with dull humor.

Anybody who's read what I've published (with even minimal fairmindedness) knows that that's not true.

I refer to the crap you write here. I'll consider what you write here as a shadow of your professional literary genius. You write an awful lot but you sure don't have a lot to say.

I meant everything I wrote that you are hoping everyone but you missed.

Now.. back to the topic (your 15 minutes of fame is now over).