harmony wrote:Every testimony is a second hand account, a response to hearing about something that took place a hundred, two hundred, two thousand years ago, which no one on earth has witnessed first hand. Do not disparage second hand accounts; they have their own value.
As for this story as it is presented, using only the facts in evidence:
1. the first thing that struck me was that he and his wife were converts. I'm sure they have children, although none are mentioned, but at least they didn't have 6 generations of Mormons alive and dead hanging on their necks like albatrosses, influencing their decision.
2. the way the Brethren treated them is disgraceful. There is no excuse for that kind of discourtesy. This man is their peer, and they threw him and his wife under a bus.
3. they retained a testimony of Jesus Christ, and didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. They didn't allow the church to take away that which they had when they joined decades ago.
4. leaving or staying has no bearing on a member's personal integrity. To imply that those who have the same knowledge yet find a way to stay are lacking in integrity is not only without foundation, but counterproductive.
1. Lucky them....I guess.
2. Harmony mocking the Brethren....well I NEVER.....
3. Harmony, they're just like you.....except when they stopped believing they left. Go and do thou likewise.
4. Counterproductive to what exactly?
No meat to your response, Nehor. Nothing new or different in that.
1. And people say we value our converts. Your response is both unfeeling and unfortunate... but nothing new in that either.
2. I wasn't mocking the Brethren, Nehor. Please learn the difference between mockery and criticism. That was criticism. And they deserve it.
3. Don't tell me what to do. You don't have that privilege. And my circumstances are much different than theirs.
4. it is counterproductive to discussion to make blanket assumptions based on one example.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
antishock8 wrote:... The Nehor (who is representative of many a Mormon in this regard).
You're definitely not the typical Mormon, my friend. Most Mormons aren't closeted homosexuals who are "virgins" and have claimed to speak directly to deity. This isn't meant as a slam, by the way. I'm agreeing with you.
I'd prefer to be thought of as atypical for things I actually do and am, not every perverted fantasy you have about me.
You don't know one way or the other and I'm not telling you. Until you know, ascribing characteristics to someone is guesswork. Please stop fantasizing about me.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Chap wrote:But by its very nature, membership of a church can and indeed should cease when one ceases to believe that what that church teaches is true. Or do you disagree?
I agree, in fact in my last post I said someone should follow through on their disbelief. I just don't see anything particularly meritorious about leaving. The fawning praise and the endless ascribing of virtue to everyone who leaves the Church is for lack of a better word, odd. It seems like the ability to point to others leaving somehow validates everyone who left. It's almost as if their testimony of leaving is strengthened.
The fawning praise and the endless ascribing of virtue to everyone who stays in the church or who converts to the church (at least until the next convert baptism or the honeymoon fellowshipping period wears off) is, for lack of a better word, nauseating (I don't find it odd... I find it nauseating). It seems like the ability to point to others who stay somehow validates everyone who stays. It's almost as if their testimony of the church is strengthened.
Works both ways, Nehor.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
Chap wrote:But by its very nature, membership of a church can and indeed should cease when one ceases to believe that what that church teaches is true. Or do you disagree?
I agree, in fact in my last post I said someone should follow through on their disbelief. I just don't see anything particularly meritorious about leaving.
We may differ on that point. The Chesney's had a huge social investment in the CoJCoLDS. Then (assuming, as both of are apparently prepared to do, that the story is reliable) they decided, with considerable reluctance, that what the CoJCoLDS taught was not true. So they walked away from those years of tithe-paying and from the social networks they belonged to - which included considerable status, given the callings he had held - and they went out into the cold. That shows integrity of a praiseworthy kind, does it not?
Certainly those LDS posters on this board who sometimes abuse people for staying in the CoJCoLDS for family reasons despite unbelief would be inconsistent if they did not give credit for courage to those who do leave, despite the consequent social loss.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
You don't know one way or the other and I'm not telling you. Until you know, ascribing characteristics to someone is guesswork. Please stop fantasizing about me.
Well, you stated you were a virgin. You also stated you talked to invisible beings. As far as your homosexuality goes... That's just a given.
Could we please keep to the some semblance of relevance to the subject of this thread? Start another thread about the status of Nehor's virginity if it interests you so much.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
Could we please keep to the some semblance of relevance to the subject of this thread? Start another thread about the status of Nehor's virginity if it interests you so much.
Motion seconded. This distraction has neither wit nor novelty to commend it.
Can it please, Nehor and antishock8, or continue in Telestial.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Chap wrote:We may differ on that point. The Chesney's had a huge social investment in the CoJCoLDS. Then (assuming, as both of are apparently prepared to do, that the story is reliable) they decided, with considerable reluctance, that what the CoJCoLDS taught was not true. So they walked away from those years of tithe-paying and from the social networks they belonged to - which included considerable status, given the callings he had held - and they went out into the cold. That shows integrity of a praiseworthy kind, does it not?
Certainly those LDS posters on this board who sometimes abuse people for staying in the CoJCoLDS for family reasons despite unbelief would be inconsistent if they did not give credit for courage to those who do leave, despite the consequent social loss.
No, I don't think I'm inconsistent. I don't consider walking away from something particularly praiseworthy. I consider it common sense. If I were to somehow find out tomorrow that the LDS faith was untrue (not sure how that's possible) I would walk away and I wouldn't consider it brave or courageous to do so.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
antishock8 wrote:Well, you stated you were a virgin.
No, no I didn't.
You also stated you talked to invisible beings.
Invisible in the sense that I can't see them all the time when talking to them? Then yes, this is correct. Like most religious people on the planet.
As far as your homosexuality goes... That's just a given.
I'm not sure why you're obsessed with this. If it's what I suspect then I'm flattered but please stop. It's creepy.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo