Why would God call Joseph Smith to restore the true church?

[_truth dancer]

Hi TD!

I don't think that claim has been made anywhere. But when you have stuff like:

http://scriptures.LDS.org/en/dc/1

being put out there you kind of have to sit down and take a really close look. Not that all these other guys you mentioned aren't special or anything...

Regards,
MG

Why?

There are all sorts of people who claim to be the voice of God, or God himself, or a prophet, or an oracle of one kind or another. (Think Conversations with God, The Abraham material, ACIM for examples).

The "end of days" predictions are at least 2,000 years old. Nothing new here!

If I were to try to establish the hand of God in the lives of humans it would probably be by looking at really amazing, incredible, seemingly "miraculous" events that altered the course of human history for good.

Say, like discovering fire? Or realizing seeds grow? Or developing compassion? Or language? Or discovering germs? Embracing equality. Creating mitochondria. Ya know changes in the very awareness, understanding, or existence of life?

But again, who is able to know when God is intervening and when life is just playing out as it will based on the unfolding of the universe?

Anyone can claim God is intervening at any time, for any reason, in any way because everything that exists is a result of what has happened for the past 13.9 billion years.

For example, followers of Islam can make the case that THEY are the true followers of Allah, while the FLDS can make the case that THEY are the chose, while Scientologists make the case that they know the true story of life, yet our very own Nightlion believes HE is the modern day prophet, and on and on and on and on and on and on... :-)

If I find my keys, I can claim God helped me, if I don't I could claim, God is testing my faith.

Ya know?

~td~

[_Sethbag]

1. Intelligence
2. Zeal for Learning
3. Faith in a Living God
4. Power of Introspection
5. Love of People

These characteristics/qualities would empower and carry along a person who dealt with the things Joseph Smith did...wouldn't they?

Yes, but that person's success would be a reflection on their intelligence, zeal, perserverence, charisma, and so forth, not that some supernatural being out there in the Universe empowered that person to tell the rest of us what to do.

[_Bond James Bond]

Think about how far-fetched this is: here is this historian, studying U.S. history for a year, and the only "great American" he can identify is Joseph Smith? Come on, now.

Quite right. I guess the only source that anonymous historian was using to study US History was the LDS Church's website.

[_mentalgymnast]

1. Intelligence
2. Zeal for Learning
3. Faith in a Living God
4. Power of Introspection
5. Love of People

These characteristics/qualities would empower and carry along a person who dealt with the things Joseph Smith did...wouldn't they?

Yes, but that person's success would be a reflection on their intelligence, zeal, perserverence, charisma, and so forth, not that some supernatural being out there in the Universe empowered that person to tell the rest of us what to do.

OK, so here's the way I see it. This is responding mainly to TD and Sethbag. I don't much disagree with much of what you're saying. If I was sitting where you're at I'd look at it similarly. The thing is, however, if (ok, a few if's here) there is a God...a god as described in the Judeo-Christian tradition, a being in whose image we are created...and if this god has had dealings with various groups of people throughout history in different ways and means according to their needs, desires, capabilities, etc., AND if this god is also the god who revealed himself to Abraham and the other patriarchs (already lost you?...oops, no Abraham or Moses and those other guys...sorry, no cigar) and Jesus Christ was his only begotten son who brought about a resurrection for all mankind, brought priesthood power, acted as a perfect exemplar, yada, yada, yada (the Christian story along with the Mormon twist of an apostasy and need for a restoration...Ok, now I know I've lost you ), THEN who would God have "called" to perform a latter day "restoration"? In my mind it seems as though he would focus on someone who inherently exhibited certain attributes, such as the ones that were elaborated on in my initial post.

All I'm saying is that if God were to restore lost truths and a true church (which is no small thing and hadn't been done successfully before in totality), what type of individual would be successful in pulling it off? Even with his faults (and we all have them, so who are we to judge another), Joseph Smith may have demonstrated certain attributes (such as the five mentioned in the original post) that would have pulled him through, so to speak, when others may have thrown in the towel or not been successful for one reason or another.

There are reasons to discredit Joseph Smith and take away any likelihood of possibility that he could be a prophet by which Jesus Christ could restore his church (again, on the assumption that there was something which needed to be restored, etc.), but there are also reasons to look at Joseph Smith as a man who may have had compensating abilities and/or talents/attributes which would have helped him "pull it off". Contrary to Harmony's tunnel visioned view of Joseph Smith expressed earlier in this thread, Joseph Smith was a great man in many ways as we would assume other prophets were. He was also flawed in some ways as other prophets and holy men have been.

Maybe it would be well to look at the reasons that Joseph could have been who he claimed to be rather than looking ONLY at the reasons that would turn us in the opposite direction. Of course, if we do that and we end up coming to some sort of resolution and thus acceptance of his "prophet hood" that would entail having to make some course corrections in our overall world view and/or behaviors and practices.

Some would rather not go there.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

If I find my keys, I can claim God helped me, if I don't I could claim, God is testing my faith.

Ya know?

~td~

Hi again TD,

True. But looking at this conundrum and then concluding that God doesn't really exist would be silly, right? I mean, this isn't a deal breaker for belief in a personal God is it?

In turn, your posts thus far haven't given me any reason to disbelieve that when all is said and done that God could have called Joseph Smith to perform a unique and special mission. Where is the deal breaker?

Like I said in my last post, maybe we ought to at least look at reasons that God could have called Joseph Smith to perform a sacred and special mission rather than reasons that he couldn't have...no way, no how.

Regards,
MG

[_truth dancer]

Hi MG,

OK, I'm trying here, I really am!

Still, this argument makes no sense to me.

Let's go with all your "ifs"... still,

The scriptures are filled with examples of men (not women) being blessed to do all sorts of things. God can help men be excellent public speakers, he can send angels to convert them, he can soften hearts, make weak things become strong (read, make those without talent be filled with personality and charisma); he can send helpers, destroy buildings, protect missionaries in a lion's cage, help soldiers destroy whole cities and slaughter everyone inside. He can send plagues, and he can send enough rain to cover the earth with water killing everyone but a handful of his chosen children. Seems pretty powerful to me. But let's discuss some really cool things, like creating a universe, a star, a galaxy, energy, life, etc. etc.

I just see absolutely no reason God couldn't take anyone he wanted and bless them in anyway he wished. I see no reason whatsoever to think God was limited to a certain individual, or had to go with someone who had specific talents (whatever they may be).

Beyond that, I have to think that if God was at the helm, and was intervening (even minimally), there would be some evidence God was involved. As it is, again, I think the way things work in religion, seems everyone comes up with "proof" their way is the right way, that their God is the right God, that their inspiration is from the real source, that they alone have the real truth.

Ya know?

Fun to have you back MG...

~td~