Mopologetics and the Sending of Emails

[_Doctor Scratch]

Beastie,

Can I tell you that I had an intensely visceral and emotional reaction to your post? Most of the time, reading the board is just a fun, entertaining sort of thing, but when I read your post, something dawned on me and I felt as cold as if I had died. Look at this:

I do not believe DCP lives to hurt or destroy people. I think that, like all human beings, he engages in behavior that he feels is morally justified.

[SNIP!]

anyone who fights against it is really doing Satan's work - deliberately or not. So it's morally justified to do all one can to fight against Satan's work - even if a few people get hurt in the process. It's a righteous war.

What occurs to me is that there is a kind of "spiritual objectification" going on in the minds of apologists. So, when you say, "I do not believe DCP lives to hurt or destroy people," I agree with you. I also agree with you that DCP and his ilk feel that "anyone who fights against [apologetics] is really doing Satan's work." But, if you are right, then think about that for a moment.

Is a "tool of Satan" actually a human being, in the LDS worldview? Do partners of the Adversary deserve to be treated with respect, or human decency? What you are suggesting here, Beastie--whether intentionally or not--is genuinely frightening. And I think you have nailed one of the reasons why I find Mopologetics so problematic: it dehumanizes anyone who dares oppose it. Critics of apologetics aren't "human." They are Satanic scum to be snuffed out by any means necessary. If critics are pawns of Lucifer, then everything becomes fair game: their careers, their sex lives, their intelligence, their associations, their family. Everything. So, while DCP and other apologists might be perfectly charming in real life, they think they are extinguishing the flames of Mephistopheles when they are online. Those of us who argue with DCP aren't actual people, with actual feelings and actual lives: were just "malevolent obsessives" who deserve to be taken out with "assault rifles."

This is tantamount to a Joycean epiphany, in my opinion, and it is very, very disquieting, and I think that you've keyed in on a staggeringly important truth about apologetics, Beastie. Systems that dehumanize people need desperately to be criticized, and, if possible, dismantled.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Great drama, Scratch. I don't believe it for a moment, but the paranoid terror is a nice touch.

I am just stunned at his responses on the "Eric" thread. I went to bed last night shaking my head, hoping I'd wake up to see some signs of a heart somewhere there, but it was not to be. All I'm seeing is when the animal is attacked, it bites back. Jesus would be impressed out of his mind.

I expect the animal back to attack, soon.

And here it comes, that attack. Every bit as vicious as before:

Nobody here has any call to judge or condemn Eric's family. Nobody here needs to choose sides in a private family matter. Nobody here knows enough to do so. Hearing only one side is not enough. It's nobody's business.

There. Simply stunning. Vicious and heartless as ever. Monumentally arrogant. Dripping with hubris. Unrepentant. Worthy of the contempt of all decent human beings.

This is an extraordinarily weird place.

[_Doctor Scratch]

You live to destroy other people . . . I haven't devoted my life to an institution that's designed to hurt people.

Great stuff.

FARMS's & SHIELDS's character assassinations are "Great stuff"? Um, okay.... I'm afraid I disagree, old sport.

I never posted private email correspondence that led to people losing job opportunities.

???

You gave Infymus's emails to SHIELDS, which led to his getting denied job opportunities. Do you deny this?

???

I never emailed people's family members in the hopes that ill would befall them.

???

<sigh> Uh, GoodK? Hello? Okay, wait. I guess we can suppose that you just didn't care what would happen. I guess that's another way we can look at this.

I never got paid over $20,000 to do apologetics.

???

And, I never lied in public about the payment!

I've never told hundreds of people that a person's professional work is "untrustworthy."

And you've apparently never read a negative book review, since you seem to imagine that my saying such a thing is somehow unprecedented.

No: I've never read a single professional book review that earnestly calls an author "untrustworthy." Feel free to supply a single reputable example.

[_The Nehor]

No: I've never read a single book review.

Fixed it for you.

[_Doctor Scratch]

Great drama, Scratch. I don't believe it for a moment, but the paranoid terror is a nice touch.

So, you're claiming that you don't dehumanize the posters on this board? You view all of us--Mercury, PP, Some Schmo, myself, Gadianton--as real, human beings who deserve to be treated with respect? Pardon me if I find this a bit suspect.

I am just stunned at his responses on the "Eric" thread. I went to bed last night shaking my head, hoping I'd wake up to see some signs of a heart somewhere there, but it was not to be. All I'm seeing is when the animal is attacked, it bites back. Jesus would be impressed out of his mind.

I expect the animal back to attack, soon.

And here it comes, that attack. Every bit as vicious as before:

Nobody here has any call to judge or condemn Eric's family. Nobody here needs to choose sides in a private family matter. Nobody here knows enough to do so. Hearing only one side is not enough. It's nobody's business.

Likewise:

Nobody here has any call to judge or condemn DCP or the SCMC when they interrogated a wavering member for 4 hours in SLC. Nobody here needs to choose sides in a private family matter. Nobody here knows enough to do so. Hearing only one side is not enough, even if it's only DCP's/the SCMC's. It's nobody's business.

You do this all the time, Dan. It's because critics are not real people to you. They are tools of Satan who need to be crushed. You once said that you always felt bad if you learned, after the fact, that something you did had caused harm. Well, Eric has said repeatedly that you harmed his relationship with his stepdad. So where's your remorse? Your only out is to claim that Eric is a liar, or that he's being disingenuous, or that you don't believe his claim (which would mean that you are a mind-reader). The truth of the matter seems to be that you dehumanize critics. You manufacture whatever excuse you can to avoid admitting that you screwed up.

There. Simply stunning. Vicious and heartless as ever. Monumentally arrogant. Dripping with hubris. Unrepentant. Worthy of the contempt of all decent human beings.

No apologist has the right to impugn a historian's honesty. No apologist should ever gossip about a historians private sex life. Hearing stuff by the grapevine is not enough. It's nobody's business.

You are so full of crap I can smell your stink from here.

[_Ray A]

There. Simply stunning. Vicious and heartless as ever. Monumentally arrogant. Dripping with hubris. Unrepentant. Worthy of the contempt of all decent human beings.

You make your own enemies.

This is an extraordinarily weird place.

At least it's not "peculiar".

[_Doctor Scratch]

No: I've never read a single book review.

Fixed it for you.

Wha? Oh, hilarious, Nehor! So funny! You know, since you've established yourself as a very intelligent, temperate, even-handed poster who is knowledgeable on a variety of subjects (such as when ellipses should be used).

[_Daniel Peterson]

You make your own enemies.

And, here, I make enemies for suggesting that people not publicly judge private strangers of whom they know little.

Fascinating.

[Guest]

Is a "tool of Satan" actually a human being, in the LDS worldview?

Yes, but they're also tools.

Do partners of the Adversary deserve to be treated with respect, or human decency?

No, but we're commanded to do so anyways. The whole idea of the Fall is that no one deserves it.

What you are suggesting here, Beastie--whether intentionally or not--is genuinely frightening.

I know I'm terrified. Scratch is so mentally far gone that he takes disagreement to mean people think he's less then human. Someone should lock him up before he reaches his next epiphany and discovers that his next door neighbor is a lesbian Nazi hooker out to kill him for his kidneys.

And I think you have nailed one of the reasons why I find Mopologetics so problematic: it dehumanizes anyone who dares oppose it.

No, the opposers do that without help from us.

Critics of apologetics aren't "human."

Oh come on now. Just because you're a child of hell doesn't mean I don't think you're human.

They are Satanic scum to be snuffed out by any means necessary.

I don't look for Satanic scum. I avoid it.

If critics are pawns of Lucifer, then everything becomes fair game: their careers, their sex lives, their intelligence, their associations, their family.

I'm planning to run over your cat, defecate on your porch, and photoshop a picture of your head on a hippo's body too. Since everything is fair game and all.

Everything.

(Cue drum roll)

So, while DCP and other apologists might be perfectly charming in real life, they think they are extinguishing the flames of Mephistopheles when they are online.

Cleansing the Internet....one heathen at a time.

Those of us who argue with DCP aren't actual people, with actual feelings and actual lives: were just "malevolent obsessives" who deserve to be taken out with "assault rifles."

That's not fair at all. I for one believe that malevolent obsessives like yourself have actual feelings and actual lives and deserve to only be winged by assault rifles.

This is tantamount to a Joycean epiphany, in my opinion, and it is very, very disquieting, and I think that you've keyed in on a staggeringly important truth about apologetics, Beastie.

(Cue the watershed line) I think we've once again stumbled on a breathrough. If humanity had as many breakthroughs in Physics a decade as Scratch has on a monthly basis we'd have cold fusion, FTL travel, and easy to open pickle jars by now. I eagerly await reading the full article on this exciting breakthrough in a reputable journal.

Systems that dehumanize people need desperately to be criticized, and, if possible, dismantled.

Did you threaten to dismantle my faith's defenders? Excuse me, I've got to go clean my assault rifle.

[_Daniel Peterson]

DCP or the SCMC when they interrogated a wavering member for 4 hours in SLC.

There may be some here who are new to the Scratch Method and/or may wonder what this is about.

With a colleague, having been asked to do it by the secretary of the SCMC, who was a friend of the family and whom they had asked for help, I spoke with a wavering member in Salt Lake City for about four hours once. The conversation took place at a stake center. He came voluntarily. He raised various historical and doctrinal issues. We discussed them. He left when he wanted to leave. It was a pleasant meeting. We parted in disagreement, but quite politely.

Transmogrified by elementary application of the Scratch Method, that becomes an "interrogation."

Three years of this. Three years.