When does the fear go away?

[_EAllusion]

Meh. Nevermind.

[_Some Schmo]

And I still am waiting for you to supply three lies the current LDS leadership is perpetrating as well as evidence of such.

Pretty easy:

1) Lie: Adam and Eve - Proof: Evolution (among many other fields of science)
2) Lie: Age of Earth - Proof: Geology (among many other fields of science)
3) Lie: Noah's Flood - Proof: Geology (among many other fields of science)

And that was off the top of my head. Of course, the cogdis thread helped.

[_Jason Bourne]

1) Lie: Adam and Eve - Proof: Evolution (among many other fields of science)

LDS have other ideas that could work on this. The leaders are not lying if they believe either evolution has holes in it or there are other ways to explain it.

2) Lie: Age of Earth - Proof: Geology (among many other fields of science)

Please show me where LDS leaders lie about the age of the earth.

3) Lie: Noah's Flood - Proof: Geology (among many other fields of science)

Same as 2.

by the way, LDS Doubter would not list these. I am more interested in the current day lies that led to his disillusionment. I know where you stand Schmo. Not trying to be rude I just know where you are at.

And that was off the top of my head. Of course, the cogdis thread helped.[/quote]

[_solomarineris]

I mean, I still believe in God and consider myself a Christian, I just believe that this church, along with many other churches, are cults that use people for money. I don't want to burn for eternity like this D&C 84 verse makes it sound. So, any pointers?

Do this for a week,
#1 do not pray at all
#1 tell yourself "there's only one one being, whom I can trust; ME"
#1 empower yourself, be full of yourself; say no to things you do not want to do
#1 indulge yourself in anything; swear; check out Playboy, Penthouse, gamble (just a little), look at your wife's beautiful friend lustfully and tell your wife "wouldn't she be a good lay?" (do this if your marriage is strong, she understands it's a joke), there are so many things you can be creative.
#1 think that god is imaginary, hell is imaginary and Jesus is a jerk read this site
http://godisimaginary.com/
#1 create your own moral standards this can help;
http://www.americanhumanist.org/Who_We_ ... ifesto_III

You can be much better person if you believe in yourself.

[_harmony]

Let me help you out, doubter. Current situations on which the information is hidden and could conceal lies:

1. the source of the funds used to buy the shopping mall.

2. the cost of the Conference Center and the bidding process.

3. the land deal in Arizona.

All related to money, all related to books that are closed.

[_Nevo]

Yes, I realize that, but we must consider the source. If Hebrews was composed by the Apostle Paul, we must consider that after Paul repented of all the evil deeds he did while he was Saul, he devoted his life in selfless service to Christ.

I thought you said you had a theology degree.

Contrast this with Joseph Smith, who married other men's wives, took advantage of young girls, did glasslooking scams, committed bank fraud, was an alcoholic, and was boastful.

Joseph Smith was sealed to women who were already married (about ten by my count), and he took up scrying as a teenager, but he was not an alcoholic, and it is open question whether the activities of the Kirtland Safety Society were, in fact, unlawful.

He said he did a better work than Jesus, when Paul always discouraged boasting and tried to take the attention off of himself and the other apostles as much as possible.

He said he did a better work than Jesus in keeping a whole church together, which might be true. As for Paul "always discourag[ing] boasting," I guess you haven't read 2 Corinthians 11.

Harmony, I'm not sure what religion you are, but even if you are an athiest you have to admit that what we know about Paul from the historical record makes him seem like a much better authority to accept on Christianity than someone with the character of Joseph Smith.

The Apostle Paul and Joseph Smith both claimed to receive revelation from Jesus Christ. They had this treasure in earthen vessels, as it were. Both were controversial, polarizing figures in their lifetime—and I believe both were prophets of God.

Also, the New Testament as a whole is non-sectarian. . .

Tell that to a Jew.

[_EAllusion]

Nevo -

There are lots of degree granting Bible colleges (biiiiiiible if you're a fan) that will teach arguments for the Pauline authorship of Hebrews. I appreciate the snark, though. My erased post was on that subject, but then thought better of it.

[_Nevo]

There are lots of degree granting Bible colleges (biiiiiiible if you're a fan) that will teach arguments for the Pauline authorship of Hebrews.

I thought the BYU Religion department was the last bastion of this teaching. The conservative NIV Study Bible doesn't even bother trying to defend Pauline authorship: "Since the Reformation it has been widely recognized that Paul could not have been the writer." It's nice to know there are still some fringe fundamentalist Christians out there to keep the Mormons company.

[_Jason Bourne]

1. the source of the funds used to buy the shopping mall.

You have proof the Hinckley lied that none of this is coming from tithing funds?

2. the cost of the Conference Center and the bidding process.

Can you show me where someone lied about this? You don't even show me what you think the lie is.

3. the land deal in Arizona.

The Church paid too much for a property? Happens all the time. Do you have proof that there was malfeasance involved?

[_LDSDoubter]

To answer a few of the things some previous posters mentioned:

When I was in Bible college (I actually went to two different Bible colleges, one of which is on US News & World Report) some of my professors disagreed as to the author of Hebrews, some said Paul, some didn't. I was going by the LDS interpretation for this discussion, since the LDS posters probably believe that.

WAY MORE THAN 3 Things the church is lying about:
1. The true character of Joseph Smith, just check the priesthood manual and vc movie. One poster on here even has the date of an extramarital affair Joseph Smith had 3 years before sealings/polygamy started.
2. The Ira Fulton affair/closed books (no other "respectable" church hides its financials from members)
3. Having a paid clergy
4. Emma Smith, someone who poisons people and is an apostate, as the "elect lady."
5. Joseph Smith fulfilling the masonic prophecies of the 1820s, no longer taught today in masonic circles
6. Initiatory lifted from Celtic witchcraft (forerunner to wicca)
7. Endowment lifted from masonry and the Cochranites
8. Book of Abraham names taken from first chapter of Sexias Alphabet & Grammar & Exodus 6, storyline from Thomas Dick, and popular masonic works at the time
9. 1st degree masonic blood oath between Satan and Cain in the Book of Moses, thousands of years before it was invented
10. Captian Kidd pirate mythology in the Book of Mormon (slippery treasure)
11. Royal arch masonry storyline/Spaulding novel for discovery of Book of Mormon con
12. Alma 40 quotes the Westminster Confession
13. Thousands of changes in the Book of Mormon, some changing doctrine
14. 6,000 changes in the D&C, some changing doctrine
15. Story of Tecumseh (Teancum) and Moraviantown (Morianton) from the War of 1812 in the Book of Mormon
16. Moroni, Camora (similar to 1830 Book of Mormon spelling) from Captian Kidd legend, both names used for Book of Mormon in the finding of the plates story
17. Numerous failed prophecies in the D&C (temple in Missouri, among others)
18. Phony prophecies added to D&C long after the events happened to improve the D&C track record (civil war, saints in rocky mtns
19. Doctrines witheld from investigators
20. 3 Degrees of Glory and Celestial Marriage taken from Swedenborg
21. Adam-God Doctrine
22. Blood Atonement/Rosmos Anderson, John D. Lee, etc.
23. Castrations in early Utah for adultery
24. Early church leaders practicing occult sciences (scrying, rods, seer stones, magick parchments, daggers/wands, numerical matrices, talismans, etc.)
25. Brigham Young stealing $1 million from church (listen to "Church is not true" beehive house tour podcast)

And that is just at the top of my head. I'm sure others could contribute more. You don't have to search too hard to catch them in lies, they've got lying down as a science! If the LDS church would come clean about all these things, make its membership requirements more liberal, and not stick to things they know are untrue I wouldn't have a problem with it, but when they lie just to reel in tithers, and dupe believers into thinking they are "the one true church" and get as much as they can before you discover the truth, it's just sickening. That's the only reason they don't come clean with a full-disclosure, they want to get as much as they can from everyone before they find out.

The church should be honest about its history, disclose where all funds are going in an annual report to the members (as is customary with other churches), and answer the charges that have been levied against its leadership, scriptures, curriculum, scholars, etc. The more they are quiet about it and only putting out falsehoods is the more suspicious they look.

They've hurt a lot of people, it's no wonder there is the class-action lawsuit already circulating on the web. I know they've hurt four people in my family already and I've had many friends I've met in the church that have quit after being hurt.

Also, I am not an agnostic, I'm a Bible-believing Christian (once again).