To what extent are TBM/Apologist tastes Brethren-directed?

[_Gadianton]

I think that the TBM/Apologist expressed opinion that alcohol is simply meant to "dull the senses" only strengthens Dr. Robber's thesis. They appear to misunderstand the beautiful symphony that comes with a meal and an aptly paired, high quality beverage.

Yes. And I am being honest here when I say I responded to Nehor before I saw you had written this. The fact that the Nehor and possibly Mak, post baptism, can't understand this, just goes to show the kind of blinders that they've been afixed with by Church leadership.

I would only add one small thing to what you wrote here, and that is for my thesis in particular, understanding the "beautiful symphony" involves understanding it as understood by the composers as much as possible. It's the tastes of the composers (products of the culture) that define necessity, and not some believed-to-be privilaged outside vantage point that can objectively reduce the cultural experience and discard elements whimsically.

[_maklelan]

This quote perfectly demonstrates just how "green jello" you are, Nehor. I don't equate "alcohol consumption" or "dulling one's senses" with being cultured.

You very clearly did. Your whole thread is about how the Word of Wisdom precludes being properly cultured.

Expensive French restaurants, however, match wines to food.

So does the Olive Garden. You really don't have a clue what you're talking about, do you?

Honestly, Nehor, I'm not making this up. And your objections show how you interpret other cultures reductively through green-jello Mormon lenses when enjoying wine with a meal becomes mere "alcohol consumption" and "dulling one's senses". I could knock the high fat content of an expensive dish and argue that if one wants a lump of grease, they can just go to McDonalds. I could, using your logic, suggest that if you're going to stare at Judith.. all day, might as well just pick up a porn magazine from 7-11. Your comments here explain fantastically why you are not, nor ever will be cultured. It's not merely the motions you go through to mimick, but how you make your approach in the first place. Your argument here says it all, and helps my cause out a great deal, thank you.

There's no /k/ in "mimic." Are you also going to insist that knowing how to use your own language is not a part of being cultured?

[_maklelan]

Yes. And I am being honest here when I say I responded to Nehor before I saw you had written this. The fact that the Nehor and possibly Mak, post baptism, can't understand this, just goes to show the kind of blinders that they've been afixed with by Church leadership.

So you think I could go from knowing far more about wine than you to not recognizing the value of a good wine pairing simply by being baptized?

[_maklelan]

But it's also a valid question, to what extent do the commands of the Brethren work against culture?

To answer your question, and speaking as someone with far more culture than you, to no significant extent.

[_Gadianton]

I suppose we should conclude that the initial jab of this thread, namely that Mormons lack culture because they cannot drink alcohol, has been abandoned,

Absolutely not. In fact, the thesis is developing quite nicely. The fact that you and the Nehor can't understand why you can't selectively edit out the wine from La Caille's menu or the "bad scenes" from the holistic experience of Schindler's list demonstrates why as Mormons, it's virtually impossible to become cultured people.

Anyway, don't misinterpret my lack of quick response to be abandonment. I will be very busy today and probably won't be able to respond further until tonight. I'm almost late for my Shakespeare club and after that I have an afternoon of croquet and badminton lined up.

[_maklelan]

Absolutely not. In fact, the thesis is developing quite nicely.

No it isn't.

The fact that you and the Nehor can't understand why you can't selectively edit out the wine from La Caille's menu

There's nothing on this earth that precludes me from editing out the wine list and maintaining culture. You're just making stuff up.

or the "bad scenes" from the holistic experience of Schindler's list demonstrates why as Mormons, it's virtually impossible to become cultured people.

I didn't edit out any bad scenes, and as I've already made perfectly clear several times over, several Mormons on this board alone have far more culture than you ever will. Your argument is ludicrous.

Anyway, don't misinterpret my lack of quick response to be abandonment. I will be very busy today and probably won't be able to respond further until tonight. I'm almost late for my Shakespeare club and after that I have an afternoon of croquet and badminton lined up.

And you seem to think people believe these silly lies.

[_Doctor Scratch]

I suppose we should conclude that the initial jab of this thread, namely that Mormons lack culture because they cannot drink alcohol, has been abandoned,

Absolutely not. In fact, the thesis is developing quite nicely. The fact that you and the Nehor can't understand why you can't selectively edit out the wine from La Caille's menu or the "bad scenes" from the holistic experience of Schindler's list demonstrates why as Mormons, it's virtually impossible to become cultured people.

This is a devastating critique, and it just goes to show how naïve TBM "epicures" like Maklelan and The Nehor really are. (Honestly---The Olive Garden? Not that I dislike the Olive Garden, but comparing "wine pairings" at the Olive Garden with wine pairings at, say, Guy Savoy is like comparing the prose of Danielle Steele to Virginia Woolf.)

Maklelan's basic contention is that he can edit out what he wants and still perceive a holistic sense of the culture. Okay: suppose we eliminate alcohol, but let's remember the the WoW also forbids the consumption of tea and coffee. Do the TBMs really want to argue that they have a full sense of the culture, cuisine and ceremonies of those cultures (e.g., Japan and China) without drinking tea?

This is to say nothing of things like film, TV, and comedy, much of which is also forbidden. Re: Liz's remarks, I recall "Scotty Dog" Lloyd sternly lecturing people on MAD that Jesus Christ: Superstar had been dismissed as degenerate art by the Brethren. (Can you imagine the FP sanctioning something like Rent, or Hair, or---and this would be classic---Angels in American?)

[_Yoda]

I would only add one small thing to what you wrote here, and that is for my thesis in particular, understanding the "beautiful symphony" involves understanding it as understood by the composers as much as possible. It's the tastes of the composers (products of the culture) that define necessity, and not some believed-to-be privilaged outside vantage point that can objectively reduce the cultural experience and discard elements whimsically.

This is why I was surprised that you didn't comment on my example. One of the things I emphasize in my Master Classes when we are doing sessions on Musical Theater sketches is keeping the experience as true to the original production as possible...."unedited"...as it were...so that the composer's message is portrayed effectively.

I gave an example of a parent, who serves as significant leadership in the Church, has no objection to his child being exposed to this type of culture, and furthermore, actually pays me to do it.

Frankly, I see this as an example of a real-life situation which defies the stereotype you set up.

[_Yoda]

Can you imagine the FP sanctioning something like Rent, or Hair,

An interesting side-note....my TBM husband's parents saw the opening night original Broadway production of "Rent".

[_gramps]

Can we call you on your grammar if you are going to call others on their spelling? (edited to add ) Or is that acceptable in Provo these days?

In an OP about how cultured a person is in comparison to the Mormons they should not grievously misspell "restaurant." You're free to correct my grammar all you want, but I don't know what Provo has to do with anything, unless you think you're being clever by looking at the "Location" part of of my account.

But, in the response to the OP about how cultured a person is, it is OK to use bad grammar? I don't get your logic here? But, thanks. It is always nice to learn new rules of behavior from kids like yourself.

I know you have been in Provo, studying at BYU. I was just wondering if they allow that kind of grammar as common place. Probably won't fly in such a cultured place as Oxford. Better tighten that up there before you cross the Atlantic.

Oh, and could you also lay down the rule for us so that we can distinguish between just a misspelling and a 'grievous' misspelling? I would really appreciate your help on that? Budding scholar that you are, and all.