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[Shulem]

Thanks so much!

[Jersey Girl]

Thanks so much!

I puffy heart you. <3

[Alf'Omega]

Dan sees Nephi's answer as something altogether different from what Nephi actually says. Nephi's interpretation of the Tree was "the Love of God," which refers to Jesus, not Mary.

The narrative in 1 Nephi 11 resembles too much of the New Testament, and therefore makes perfect sense in that context. There is no need to seek profound meanings in a preexilic Israelite context. And by the way, Nephi's reference to the "virgin" Mary would be considered an anachronism in Israelite religion; just another reason the chapter reflects more from the New Testament than anything else.

Dan mentions none of these parallel New Testament verses because he is trying to draw connections with the Old Testament. But the New Testament parallels are far more compelling; one of which is almost an identical citation from Romans. The "Love of God" was Nephi's understanding, and this is almost always associated with Jesus Christ, never the virgin Mary.

The tree of life/river connection, along with Jesus representing the "Love of God", is all over the New Testament.

[Kishkumen]

Dan sees Nephi's answer as something altogether different from what Nephi actually says. Nephi's interpretation of the Tree was "the Love of God," which refers to Jesus, not Mary.

The narrative in 1 Nephi 11 resembles too much of the New Testament, and therefore makes perfect sense in that context. There is no need to seek profound meanings in a preexilic Israelite context. And by the way, Nephi's reference to the "virgin" Mary would be considered an anachronism in Israelite religion; just another reason the chapter reflects more from the New Testament than anything else.

Dan mentions none of these parallel New Testament verses because he is trying to draw connections with the Old Testament. But the New Testament parallels are far more compelling; one of which is almost an identical citation from Romans. The "Love of God" was Nephi's understanding, and this is almost always associated with Jesus Christ, never the virgin Mary.

The tree of life/river connection, along with Jesus representing the "Love of God", is all over the New Testament.

Mmm. . . I can see why you think that, but I would argue that the case is a lot more ambiguous than you recognize, and probably tilts in the direction of the tree being the Virgin Mary.

8 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me: Look! And I looked and beheld a tree; and it was like unto the tree which my father had seen; and the beauty thereof was far beyond, yea, exceeding of all beauty; and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow.

Compare that description of the tree to this description of Mary that follows:

And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.
14 And it came to pass that I saw the heavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he said unto me: Nephi, what beholdest thou?
15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.

It's right there in the text, and so I don't see the association of the tree with the Virgin Mary to be a stretch at all.

[Kishkumen]

To continue with that thought:

I think it is fair to read the tree as the Virgin Mary and its "fruit" as Jesus. Let's go back to 1 Nephi 8:

10 And it came to pass that I beheld a tree, whose fruit was desirable to make one happy.

11 And it came to pass that I did go forth and partake of the fruit thereof; and I beheld that it was most sweet, above all that I ever before tasted. Yea, and I beheld that the fruit thereof was white, to exceed all the whiteness that I had ever seen.

12 And as I partook of the fruit thereof it filled my soul with exceedingly great joy; wherefore, I began to be desirous that my family should partake of it also; for I knew that it was desirable above all other fruit.

You can see how easy it is to conflate the tree and its fruit. Are they separate things? One thing? Both are exceedingly white. But the association with children with fruit is a very old one and one we are very familiar with ourselves. Surely Joseph Smith was aware of it and using it here. When Nephi sees the tree and is then shown the interpretation of it, he sees the "mother of the Son of God" with the fruit of her womb, "the Son of the Eternal Father."

18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

We can't be blamed for conflating the fruit and the tree because they are not entirely separate, and neither is the mother of the Son of God "after the manner of the flesh" entirely separate from the Son of God.

So when Nephi opines on the meaning of the tree:

Yea, it is the love of God, which sheddeth itself abroad in the hearts of the children of men; wherefore, it is the most desirable above all things.

Jesus, as the fruit is "desirable above all things" just as Lehi had said about the fruit in his vision:

12 And as I partook of the fruit thereof it filled my soul with exceedingly great joy; wherefore, I began to be desirous that my family should partake of it also; for I knew that it was desirable above all other fruit.

But the question the guide posed was to ask Nephi if he understood the "condescension of God." In this context, condescend probably simply means, "to go down to a lower level." So the question the guide asks is this: Do you understand how God came down to human level? The answer is in both the Virgin and the Son. The Eternal Father could not have come down except through the Virgin, and therefore the Eternal Father would not have manifest in Christ without her.

The theology is Sabellian modalism. The Virgin is a key aspect of the interpretation of the passage, and she is the tree.

[Alf'Omega]

Whiteness is descriptive of virtually anything considered holy throughout the Bible.

The tree of life is also a symbol that would have been understood by anyone remotely familiar with the book of Revelation. And I argue the evidence strongly suggests this was the backdrop Joseph Smith used when producing this chapter. We should pay close attention to how Nephi's question was answered. The text does not claim the tree is Asherah nor does it claim to be the virgin Mary. It is identified as Jesus Christ, who is the "love of God" or the "condescension of God."

Lehi's tree is associated with a river and spring of water. "The symbols of fountain and tree of life are frequent" in wisdom literature too as they are in the Book of Revelation, which conspicuously enough, is never quoted in Peterson's article.

Dan points out that in 1 Nephi 8:13 -14, Lehi's tree is associated with a river and spring of water. "The symbols of fountain and tree of life are frequent" in wisdom literature too.

But these are also found in the Book of Revelation, which are never quoted in his article:

Rev 22: 1-2 "And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life."

According to the New Testament, Jesus Christ is directly associated with the "love of God" in 1 John 4:9, Titus 3:4 and Rom 8:39, while 2 Cor 13:14 associates it with his grace. Even more stunning is Romans 5:5 which says, the "love of God has been poured out within our hearts..." This sounds almost identical to Nephi "it is the love of God, which sheddeth itself abroad in the hearts..."

These are some whopper parallel verses that are not mentioned in Dan's article. In the New Testament, only two things are said to give mankind eternal life: the Tree of life and Jesus Christ. The narrative in 1 Nephi 11 begins with the Tree and the climax ends with the Lamb of God. I don't think Mormons generally find this narrative "perplexing," at all, or at least, not as much as Dan's suggests. The explanation I provided above is, I believe, the most reasonable one based on the textual evidence.

I should probably also mention that many of the scholars Dan mentions accept the Documentary Hypothesis (JEDP) which places some of the Book of Mormon Isaiah citations, after the period from which Lehi set sail for the Americas. This is a huge obstacle for LDS scholars who now need to explain how the Book of Mormon could quote an Isaiah redactor before he was even born.

It is significant that the "love of God" never refers to Mary in the New Testament, nor is it ever referenced in the Old Testament, nor is it associated with Asherah in Wisdom literature. It is always Jesus Christ who provides the water of everlasting life, not the tree, not the virgin, not God's wife. (John 4:14, Rev 21:6,22:1-2,22:7,22:16-17)

As such, I believe it is wrong to suggest, as Dan does in his article, that Joseph Smith could not have "scarcely" figured out this connection using the Bible alone. Meaning, there is no need to seek profound parallels within the Wisdom literature when the ingredients (i.e. whiteness, tree, water, love of God) for this metaphorical recipe was written all over the New Testament. In fact, it appears that Romans 5:5 is cited almost verbatim in the Nephi narrative.

[Kishkumen]

Alf, that is really simply non-responsive. I have shown you the textual evidence. It is there for the world to see. It is clear that the Virgin Mary is associated with the tree in 1 Nephi 8.

[Kishkumen]

The following passage from Jacob Boehme's The Way to Christ Discovered helps us see the kind of material that Joseph Smith might have been inspired by in 1 Nephi 8:

"When Christ the corner-stone, stirreth himself in the extinguished image of man, in his hearty conversion and repentance, then Virgin Sophia appeareth in the stirring of the Spirit of Christ, in the extinguished Image, in her Virgines attire before the soule: at which the soule is so amazed and astonished in its uncleanesse, that all its sinnes immediately awake in it, and tremble and shake before her. For then the judgement passeth upon the sinnes of the soule, so that it even goeth backe in its unworthiness, and is ashamed in the presence of its faire love, and entereth into it selfe, denying it selfe as utterly unworthy to receive such a jewell. This is understood by them who are our Tribe, who have tasted this jewell, and to none else. But the noble Sophia draweth neare in the essence of the soule, and kisseth it friendly, and tinctureth the darke fire of the soule with her Rayes of love, and shineth through the soule with her Kisse of love: then the soule skippeth in its body for great joy, in the strength of this Virgin-love, triumphing, and praying the great God, in the strength of the noble Sophia."