Buffalo wrote:by the way, my wife and I never messed up before marriage. No petting, or any of the other no-nos.
For the record, neither did we. My wife even saved her first kiss for me. :)
Sorry if this is too personal, but the great thing about waiting until marriage is that neither of us had any expectations and nothing to compare it against. It was like we had a clean slate and could learn together. It hasn't always been easy, but it's been good.
It pains me to see Mormon defenders act as if there is no problem in the church in regards to intimacy in marriage. It's as if they think admitting a problem here would hurt their testimony or make the church false. I'm not trying to hurt your testimony or say it's false because of this. I'm confident I am not alone in my experiences and I believe there are many like me. I hope others can be saved from the trouble we went through for many years. If you are reading this, please know that it's okay to believe the church was wrong in teaching some things. What I'm hoping (sincerely) is that someone in the church will come to this board and read my plea to them:
Please consider all the married couples in the church that are having problems due to the way they were brought up in your programs and culture. Please try to reach out to them and do something. They are supporting your church with their time and money. The least you could do is try to help them out.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)
One wonders what would happen if someone actually sat down and wrote a book that was designed for LDS married couples but was intended to open up the world of sexual exploration to them. No, I am not talking about some lame book on the theme of "Oh sex is not really that important, but intimacy is" bull that seems to have some audience in the LDS world. Neither am I talking about hard-core swinger porn -- but something sort of in-between.
Guess what? Sometimes even a Mormon woman just wants sex because she wants sex -- same with men. Why complicate things all the time? Just go with the animal instinct once in a while. Of course there are things that should be part of a couple's life -- intimate discussions, sexy discussions at a candlelit restaurant, cuddling, and just being together, but come on...sometimes people need a little jump-start to get the hormones flowing and giving the cerebral cortex a rest.
I have a feeling that many, maybe most LDS couples are able to ignore or shed the damaging aspects of their environment that are part of their significant cohorts norms - or perceived norms. There are, of course the couples that have miserable sex lives and cannot allow themselves some creativity.
Oh, and I will note this in ending, that every culture carries with it baggage that can harm sexual intimacy. So while LDS people have their hang-ups, so does every other social group.
Buffalo wrote:No, my parents never talked to me about sex at all. Everything I learned was in young men's.
Then blame your parents for not doing what was their job. I don't think the church should be doing that job. I think it's right for them to preach chastity, but teaching children about sex is the job of parents.
... she said that she was ready to drive up to Salt Lake City and confront ... Church leaders ... while well armed. The idea was ... dropped ... [because] she didn't have a 12 gauge with her. -DrW about his friends (Link)
Nomad wrote: Have you tried marriage counseling? It sounds like you're a good candidate for it. What with all those hangups you're carrying around.
I realize I stuck my neck out here, but there's no need for you to personalize this just because you can't seem accept anything that might be critical of your faith. Save your advice, please.
I apologize for sounding condescending with what I said.
But I really am sincere in saying that I think marriage counseling is a good idea for problems like this.
Like I said above, I think the real problem isn't what "the church" teaches, but what parents fail to teach their children. Parents do their children a real disservice by not being the primary source for sex education. Children should be taught that sex is a very, very good thing, but also very powerful and capable of doing real emotional damage if misused. That's all I'm saying. If your parents failed to teach you that, then they did you wrong. I'm glad to hear you and your wife have apparently overcome the damage done to you by parents who failed in a very important aspect of child rearing.
... she said that she was ready to drive up to Salt Lake City and confront ... Church leaders ... while well armed. The idea was ... dropped ... [because] she didn't have a 12 gauge with her. -DrW about his friends (Link)
Nomad wrote:Then blame your parents for not doing what was their job. I don't think the church should be doing that job. I think it's right for them to preach chastity, but teaching children about sex is the job of parents.
Sure, it's the parents' job, but it couldn't hurt for the church to provide some guidance as to what parents might teach their kids. An attempt was made with the "Parents Guide" but in the later stages of production all references to teaching kids anything remotely specific were yanked because at least one of the Brethren felt the church had no business publishing things like that.
I wonder if other religions provide materials or instruction for parents and youth. I know some churches have couples attend a pre-marriage seminar before they can be married in the church.
Buffalo wrote:by the way, my wife and I never messed up before marriage. No petting, or any of the other no-nos.
For the record, neither did we. My wife even saved her first kiss for me. :)
Now that is taking things too far! That's uber-chastity.
Sorry if this is too personal, but the great thing about waiting until marriage is that neither of us had any expectations and nothing to compare it against. It was like we had a clean slate and could learn together. It hasn't always been easy, but it's been good.
Well said, again.
My wife and I joke that our first couple years of marriage was the most enjoyable string of bumbling and frequent failures in our lives. But we never gave up on the process. We talked things over. We educated ourselves. Then we talked things over some more. Eventually, we figured out that aspect of our relationship. But it was because were committed to not letting that be a source of tension in our marriage. We were committed to making it work.
Wow, we've agreed so much on this thread, I don't feel well now. I'm going to have to go lay down with a cold compress on my head for a while.
... she said that she was ready to drive up to Salt Lake City and confront ... Church leaders ... while well armed. The idea was ... dropped ... [because] she didn't have a 12 gauge with her. -DrW about his friends (Link)
Like I said above, I think the real problem isn't what "the church" teaches, but what parents fail to teach their children. Parents do their children a real disservice by not being the primary source for sex education. Children should be taught that sex is a very, very good thing, but also very powerful and capable of doing real emotional damage if misused. That's all I'm saying. If your parents failed to teach you that, then they did you wrong. I'm glad to hear you and your wife have apparently overcome the damage done to you by parents who failed in a very important aspect of child rearing.
Yes, parents should instill good values. I think the average parent should, if they have a small boy or girl who is looking like they are masturbating, to calmly ask them not to do that in public. Then they learn at a young age that it is not a big deal, but that it si not something to do casually. Also, never should a parent make nudity a big issue. My wife knows one LDS woman who admitted to her that she sometimes does housework nude -- she has four girls and wants them to have a positive image of the female body.
Of course there are teaching moments to point out what is right and what is wrong. For instance, if some fundamentalist preacher is caught in a scandal involving young males then that may be a time to discuss the Bible's teachings on homosexuality, or if a politician can't keep his pants on or if a female celebrity is cheating on her husband....there are many instances where you can point to how sexuality can cause problems for people if not used in the confines of the Gospel.
Nomad wrote:Wow, we've agreed so much on this thread, I don't feel well now. I'm going to have to go lay down with a cold compress on my head for a while.
Don't sweat it. I'm sure I'll say something insincere or snarky soon enough. ;-)
My wife is out of town this week, and I have to say I hate being alone without her. Can't wait until Sunday. I guess it's a good sign that we enjoy being together after 24 years of marriage.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo