Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

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_3sheets2thewind
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _3sheets2thewind »

Runtu wrote:
The wives swore affidavits because they were asked to do so by the church in the Temple Lot Case. The stories they tell are consistent and corroborated, and no one I know disputes that they were telling the truth.


I came to understand this as I read the Temple Lot transcript. This shows that rather than make a snarky comment one should look into the alleged facts first, then make a snarky comment.
_Runtu
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _Runtu »

why me wrote:Well, if this revelation came from god and if he was being threatened for not implementing it, what was he to do? Maybe tell god to wait a moment until his wife comes onboard? Emma was weak about plural marriage. If she believed her husband to be a prophet, she should have been strong and accepted the principle. She put Joseph between a rock and a hard place. And she believed her husband to be a prophet. Now if Joseph Smith had all the experiences he said he had when organizing the church and with the Book of Mormon, it would be obvious that he felt the need to start plural marriage because it came from god.


Seems to me he had a number of possible choices, given the situation (assuming, of course, for argument's sake that God actually did command him to take plural wives):

1. Tell God, Sorry, but my wife won't go for it. You said she had to consent, and she will not. I did what you asked, but it can't be done because she won't consent.

2. Leave Emma and find a woman who will support plural marriage. Jesus said something about how we need to be willing to forsake family for his sake. If this was his commandment, this might have been such a case.

3. Go ahead and marry women behind Emma's back and hope and pray she doesn't find out.

Seriously, if he really had been between a rock and a hard place, the third option seems the worst choice.
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_Themis
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _Themis »

why me wrote:
Emma made her feelings felt about plural marriage very early on.


CFR

And Joseph did not engage in being sealed long after fanny alger. Why? Because he knew the reaction of emma. But then in 1841 he begins the practice again as a man in a tremendous hurry.


He did marry(supposedly) at least one between Fanny and 1841.

Why the rush?


What rush? I suspect he may not have started the practice until much later. he would need a number of insiders before he could really get going.

And why at that moment? Did he become a horny toad or did he feel that the practice needed to be started?


Probably not, but then one cannot really get this kind of thing going until you have a loyal inner circle of people who will support it. I think sex played a major role, but not the only one. Does this make him a horny toad. I suppose to you it does, but not to me.

And if so, how to tell his wife? Not easy. Of course, if you take the position that god played no role in all this it is quite easy to see evil.


Which is what everyone does with those doing it from other groups.

But if god was playing a role and emma was not on board, what was Joseph to do? Is he responsible for emma not being strong in faith to see the hand of god in all this?


Maybe she needed an angel with a flaming sword to inspire her as it did with Joseph. :)

And at the end of the day, she never denied his prophethood.


She also lied about him. Now what reasons would she have to ever deny his prophet-hood? She had way to much to lose, and she did run off with a treasure seeker against her parents wishes.
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_CSA
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _CSA »

Runtu wrote:
That's exactly my position. What's wrong with taking a stand and saying something is not right, especially when it clearly isn't right? If we were talking about anyone else other than Joseph Smith, no one would expend an ounce of effort to justify his behavior. Why does Joseph get a pass for things we would not accept in anyone else?


Gordon B. Hinkley wrote a book called Standing for Something, and taking a stand for or against things can be a good thing, especially when it requires commitment and sacrifice. Being able to put aside your own prejudice and your understanding of things may be required when passing judgment on if someone did wrong. Certainly in our western civilization the moral rights and wrongs are established based upon common human understanding and belief. The natural man is an enemy to God, not only in his desires, but in his understanding of what God may demand. How may someone withhold unrighteous judgment of Jospeh Smith? By deciding and understanding that God's ways are not always the ways of man.
_Blixa
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _Blixa »

CSA wrote:
Gordon B. Hinkley wrote a book called Standing for Something, and taking a stand for or against things can be a good thing, especially when it requires commitment and sacrifice. Being able to put aside your own prejudice and your understanding of things may be required when passing judgment on if someone did wrong. Certainly in our western civilization the moral rights and wrongs are established based upon common human understanding and belief. The natural man is an enemy to God, not only in his desires, but in his understanding of what God may demand. How may someone withhold unrighteous judgment of Jospeh Smith? By deciding and understanding that God's ways are not always the ways of man.


"Standing for something" should include careful reading and honest understanding of the works of others and not the disingenuous use of them for padded quotations from "famous authors."

When I first heard of this book, I took a look at it on Amazon.com using the "look inside" feature. The first few pages struck me as bland pablum about "values" and "standards" devoid of any real philosophical insight and weight. I might not have looked further had I not glanced at the Index and found a listing for "Strachey, Lytton."

What on earth could Hinckley be quoting from Strachey?

And why on earth would Hinckley be quoting Strachey at all?

After all, Lytton Strachey was a notorious homosexual, a notoriously bitchy Bloomsbury homosexual, whose works were filled with mockery of the status quo. In fact, Standing for Something is exactly the kind of empty, moralizing text that Strachey most despised. He would have had a field day with it.

Strachey's most well-known work is Eminent Victorians, a biographical look at four icons of the Victorian era. However, Strachey was not writing appreciative history. His goal was to shatter the pretensions of Victorian morality, to puncture the pompous way "great men" of the past are presented as role models for the present.

Imagine my surprise when I found Hinckley quoting from one of the most controversial chapters of Strachey's book: his treatment of Florence Nightingale. In Strachey's portrait "the angel with the lamp" comes off as a manipulative, neurotic, control-freak. (Strachey also hints that her defects hindered the creation of what later become the Red Cross).

In Standing for Something, several quotations from Eminent Victorians are used to bolster Hinckley's praise of Nightingale's selflessness, charity, devotion, etc. However, these quotations are taken wildly out of context as they come from Strachey's description of the conventional view of Nightingale, a view he then proceeds to demolish.

It's a rather delicious irony that Hinckley, or more likely, whoever ghosted Standing for Something, has borrowed from a work which is pretty much its direct antithesis. But stranger still, is that someone would turn to Strachey's work, a book known for unconventional, ironic and negative views, to cull admiring quotes in the first place. Since the work is mistitled in the citation (it's referred to as "The Life of Florence Nightingale"), I wonder if whoever wrote Standing for Something has even read, let alone understood, the source material at all.

Given this, I can't take the book seriously as a good lesson in understanding, judgment or reading comprehension. All things necessary, I would think, to a consideration of the relation of god to man.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Blixa wrote:I might not have looked further had I not glanced at the Index and found a listing for "Strachey, Lytton."


I actually had look this up, because it was too good to be true and sure enough, there it is on pages 206-207.



lol
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

Maybe the book should have been called, "Standing In Something."
The person who is certain and who claims divine warrant for his certainty belongs now to the infancy of our species. Christopher Hitchens

Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. Frater
_MsJack
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _MsJack »

why me wrote:Emma made her feelings felt about plural marriage very early on. And Joseph did not engage in being sealed long after fanny alger. Why? Because he knew the reaction of emma. But then in 1841 he begins the practice again as a man in a tremendous hurry. Why the rush? And why at that moment? Did he become a horny toad or did he feel that the practice needed to be started? And if so, how to tell his wife? Not easy. Of course, if you take the position that god played no role in all this it is quite easy to see evil. But if god was playing a role and emma was not on board, what was Joseph to do? Is he responsible for emma not being strong in faith to see the hand of god in all this? And at the end of the day, she never denied his prophethood. But being not perfect she couldn't accept this principle but the principal had to be acted upon.

[SNIP]

Well, if this revelation came from god and if he was being threatened for not implementing it, what was he to do? Maybe tell god to wait a moment until his wife comes onboard? Emma was weak about plural marriage. If she believed her husband to be a prophet, she should have been strong and accepted the principle. She put Joseph between a rock and a hard place. And she believed her husband to be a prophet. Now if Joseph Smith had all the experiences he said he had when organizing the church and with the Book of Mormon, it would be obvious that he felt the need to start plural marriage because it came from god.

And there's that "blame Emma" culture I was talking about. Lovely.

If I were to make the assumption that polygamy is from God and Joseph Smith was being threatened by God to implement the practice, I would say that it sounds like God was threatening the wrong party. Maybe God should have sent that angel with the flaming sword to Emma's door. For having supposedly commanded Joseph to go forward with such a difficult task, and for a God who was willing to use violent force to see it implemented, it's remarkable how little God seems to have done to back Joseph up.

As for Emma Smith, I think her "problem" was not that she had no faith in her husband's calling as a prophet. She had tremendous faith in that and sacrificed deeply for him. I think her problem was that she knew her husband much better than everyone else did---well enough to know that he was not above using his position as prophet to justify and pursue his own desires, and well enough to suspect that his polygamy claims were him doing just that.

But even if one accepts that God commanded Joseph Smith to practice polygamy and accepts that Emma was making this difficult on Joseph, that doesn't mean it was okay for Joseph to lie to Emma about his wives. He still had a choice. He could have told her about every single marriage before he went through with it and let her decide for herself what she was going to do with the truth.

In any case, I'm someone who rejects the prophetic claims of Joseph Smith and rejects the idea that God would force polygamy on a monogamous society that had no need for it (i. e. the male-to-female ratio was not 1:2), so of course I think it was wrong for him to form relationships with other women without telling Emma. If I did view polygamy as a valid lifestyle choice, I still wouldn't be okay with it unless it involved the consent of all parties involved. (Speaking of which, what about Joseph's other dozens of wives? Did he seek their consent when new wives were being added to the family? Doesn't sound like it.)

why me wrote:I don't ignore the testimonies of the plural wives who refused Joseph and then through prayer and asking god of the truthfulness of the principle, received a powerful confirmation of its truthfulness. Most of the women would have said no to him as many did on the first occasion without that spiritual confirmation.

I don't see how this is related to the topic at hand.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_MsJack
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _MsJack »

CSA wrote:The natural man is an enemy to God, not only in his desires, but in his understanding of what God may demand. How may someone withhold unrighteous judgment of Jospeh Smith? By deciding and understanding that God's ways are not always the ways of man.

This is exactly how Brian David Mitchell and Warren Jeffs justify what they did---God told them to do it, and God's ways are not man's ways. Do you also believe people should withhold judgment of them? Why or why not?

And no, I'm not saying Joseph Smith did anything comparable to what Mitchell and Jeffs did. I'm only pointing out that this line of reasoning can be used to justify anything.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

My Blogs: Weighted Glory | Worlds Without End: A Mormon Studies Roundtable | Twitter
_zeezrom
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _zeezrom »

God delivers truth through men not women. When he said truth comes by two or three witnesses, he was talking about Joseph and Oliver and their confirming testimony of three angels restoring the power of this very same god to the earth. He wasn't referring to female witnesses!

The ironic thing about all this is that Heavenly Mother happened to be getting a divorce finalized right at the height of the Nauvoo period. Did Heavenly Father want Joseph to treat women the way he did? Of course.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

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