Where NDEs and out of body experiences come from

[_Simon Belmont]

And why not? The accounts seem to all report the very human experiences of seeing and hearing.

It's very easy, because we are human, to look at things in a human way. Someone reports "seeing" a tunnel with a light at the end, or "seeing" a loved one -- but are they really seeing these things in the way that we commonly understand the term (eyeball/optic nerve/brain)?

[_Themis]

It's very easy, because we are human, to look at things in a human way. Someone reports "seeing" a tunnel with a light at the end, or "seeing" a loved one -- but are they really seeing these things in the way that we commonly understand the term (eyeball/optic nerve/brain)?

I am fairly confident that my dreams do not involve my eyeballs. I would be interested in seeing evidence for those blind or deaf at birth describing these experiences that would show they were seeing or hearing similar to what we understand it to be. I am not aware of any at this time, but it is an interesting subject.

What's interesting is that researchers are able to produce many of these kinds of expereinces in the lab. This does not mean there is no life after death or divine involvement, but it shows that the divine is not needed to explain the expereince. I like what Tarski brought up about not knowing when a person who has died actually had their expereince. Was it before being brain dead, during or after?

[_Buffalo]

I guess what I have the most difficulty accepting is how an out-of-body experience would work without eyes or ears (the organs we use to see and hear), which are still attached to the body on the bed, not to mention all the neural pathways and brain cells that transmit, carry and store the memories.

There you go thinking about something not real with real terms. This is what I mean by believing uncritically in magic.

Edited for clarity

[_krose]

And why not? The accounts seem to all report the very human experiences of seeing and hearing.

It's very easy, because we are human, to look at things in a human way. Someone reports "seeing" a tunnel with a light at the end, or "seeing" a loved one -- but are they really seeing these things in the way that we commonly understand the term (eyeball/optic nerve/brain)?

I was referring specifically to the accounts of people who say they watched medical procedures from above and listened to waiting room conversations while "dead," not visions of lights and passed loved ones.

I think it would be very useful if hospitals would place some sort of picture high in their operating rooms, which can only be seen from above, for the out-of-body people to describe later.

[_Quasimodo]

I think it would be very useful if hospitals would place some sort of picture high in their operating rooms, which can only be seen from above, for the out-of-body people to describe later.

I understand that there are some on-going experiments where written messages have been placed on top of OR cabinets, etc. that can only be seen from high up.

I haven't heard of any results, though.

[_lostindc]

I think it would be very useful if hospitals would place some sort of picture high in their operating rooms, which can only be seen from above, for the out-of-body people to describe later.

I understand that there are some on-going experiments where written messages have been placed on top of OR cabinets, etc. that can only be seen from high up.

I haven't heard of any results, though.

Results are due within the next year. The study involves some of the best hospitals in the world. Dr. Parnia is a fantastic doctor and has conducted numerous similar studies before. The problem with this research method is the often odd placement of the imagery. Often times when a person has left their body they are more in-tune with the happenings around them and not looking for some random picture on a shelf.

Anyways, Buffalo is an novice on this subject, at best. Nelson's study on OBE's through stimulation has been dealt with by peers in his field but Buffalo cares not to actually conduct research, please note that a stimulated OBE does not resemble the ND OBE.

I have noticed that said Buffalo typically starts a thread attacking some sort of evidence for a creator or life after death and spray paints the topic with typical mundane BS criticism, often not his own. It is a sickness and I believe if he/she cared to cultivate an actual thorough knowledge regarding any of the aforementioned subjects then he may not sound just like a nutcase conspiracy theorist attacking the federal reserve.

by the way, Nelson worked very closely with the NDERF and some of the very scholars folks in this thread find not so much credible. When he finished his research on OBEs he presented the study to his Church and explained it did nothing to hurt his faith. Nelson is quite a believer in a personal God and an afterlife.

[_krose]

Anyways, Buffalo is an novice on this subject, at best.

As am i, but it sounds as if you have looked at it quite a bit.

So have you come across a reliable account of an out-of-body experience where a blind person accurately described what something looked like, or a totally deaf person recounting a conversation?

It stands to reason that this should happen if physical eyes, ears and brain cells are not needed to see, hear and remember.

[_Buffalo]

Anyways, Buffalo is an novice on this subject, at best.

I'm also a novice on the subject of healing through crystals and UFO abduction tales.

[_lostindc]

Anyways, Buffalo is an novice on this subject, at best.

As am i, but it sounds as if you have looked at it quite a bit.

So have you come across a reliable account of an out-of-body experience where a blind person accurately described what something looked like, or a totally deaf person recounting a conversation?

It stands to reason that this should happen if physical eyes, ears and brain cells are not needed to see, hear and remember.

Plenty of reliable accounts of OBEs have occurred with blind folks. Dr. Long highlights some of these in his latest book. If one searches the archives of the Journal of Near-Death Research one will find several peer reviewed articles focused on the many accounts of blind people and OBEs and NDEs. I believe there may be a book on the very subject.

I remember perusing the Library of Congress a few years ago and finding texts with accounts of flat-lined blind folks having ndes/obes and having sight in these ndes/obes.

The shared nde is also something quite remarkable. There are plenty of texts (books, journal articles, etc.) dealing with this subject.

[_lostindc]

Anyways, Buffalo is an novice on this subject, at best.

I'm also a novice on the subject of healing through crystals and UFO abduction tales.

It appears being a novice is something rather familiar or even usual for you. From reading your posts I believe it is safe to say that you are a novice at research, comprehension, argumentation, and communication.