Drilldown #1: TBMs, details re your spiritual experience

[_Buffalo]

Am I supposed to pretend not to be skeptical in order to avoid giving offense? Liz didn't take offense. Why do you?

I don't take offense, Buffalo. The patronizing wasn't directed at me. But that sort of tone is virtually guaranteed to freeze anyone who might have been brave enough to share their experiences. It certainly stops me.

A person can be skeptical without being patronizing, without the "I don't buy it" (which implies that Liz is trying to sell something icky or stupid), without the "more reasonable" (which implies that Liz isn't reasonable).

I see your post as being highly patronizing of Liz, Harmony. As if she's such a delicate flower that any skepticism, no matter how mildly phrased, will cause her to flee like a frightened rabbit.

It's time for all of us to put on our grownup pants and realize that it's okay if someone doesn't agree with us. It's not insulting to politely disagree. In fact, the only disrespectful, insulting posts in this thread have come from you. The level of sensitivity you're expressing sounds like it's coming from a place of insecurity in your own spiritual experiences.

Your interpretations of what "don't buy it" and "more reasonable" "really" mean cannot reasonably be inferred from the context in which they were given.

[_Yoda]

And clearly, I agree that there are better explanations than supernatural ones

Such as?

Liz, I've been lurking since 2005 and that is the most honest, soul opening post I think I've ever seen. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks, Tamp! Welcome to the posting part of the board. :-)

[_Yoda]

And clearly, I agree that there are better explanations than supernatural ones

Such as?

Out of appreciation for and friendship with liz, I will decline to answer this.

Liz, I've been lurking since 2005 and that is the most honest, soul opening post I think I've ever seen. Thanks for sharing.

...and because of this.

[_mentalgymnast]

Grandma sat on the bed next to me and spoke to me...

I've been witness to others that have relayed experiences that confirmed to them that there is some type of existence after death. I've been impressed with their experiences because they are people I trust to the extent that I trust my own perceptions/experiences. I've had a number of experiences in my own life that I have a difficult time chalking up to neurotransmitters doing something out the ordinary, but I'm not willing to share here.

Thanks for sharing that experience Liz.

Regards,
MG

[_Scottie]

I'm not sure this qualifies as a spiritual experience, and it surely don't support Mormonism, but I'll relate it anyways...

I was probably about 9 years old at the time. My Dad, who was a long haul truck driver, had some of those foam earplugs that you twist between your fingers and put inside your ear canal. I was in my bedroom closet, and had stuck those in my ears to try them out. I remember hearing my little brother (who would have been 1 or 2 at the time) crying for some reason. It wasn't really an uncommon thing for him to cry, but I can remember being overwhelmed with this feeling of "something is seriously wrong here!"

I took out the earplugs out and went into the kitchen to find that everyone was crying! Turns out that my mom had run over the family dog and killed her.

I can honestly say that I only heard my brother crying with the earplugs in. Perhaps in some deeper level of hearing, unknown to my conscious mind, I heard the other crying as well. I don't know.

I tell this story because this is the typical type of emotional experience that LDS use as a springboard to push their beliefs. "That was the spirit whispering a warning to you!" The only reason one would conclude that this experience would have anything to do with the spirit is if an authority figure told you that it was the spirit. By itself, it is just a strange experience which may or may not have a logical explanation.

[_Tamp]

[quote="Some Schmo"]


Out of appreciation for and friendship with liz, I will decline to answer this."

I understand. I am asking this honestly. Is there some scientific study that gives a satisfying explanation regarding foreknowledge of an event. You can PM me out of respect for Liz if you have something interesting for me to look at. I just don't see how you can explain away Liz's experience, but I'm open to looking at something legitimate.

Thanks,
Tamp

[_sock puppet]

Liz, I think your experience is amazing and touching and I don't doubt that you experienced it. I'm not sure that it should be interpreted as affirming Mormonism, however, since many people from many faiths have similar experiences and interpret them as affirming their faith.

I've had some powerful spiritual experiences. I always viewed them as 100% reliable ... until I realized that Joseph Smith and other religious leaders (Wayne Bent) used these experiences to bed young girls. It kind of took the sheen off the whole thing at that point.

I still have spiritual experiences, but I am much less certain about how to interpret them. Usually I interpret them as simply making me feel better with nothing more. I definitely don't think they are a reliable indicator of some cosmic, absolute truth.

Actually, I don't count it as an experience affirming Mormonism, but more as an experience of affirming that there is some type of life after this one. I don't think that any of us know exactly what will happen in that life...it just exists.

I really appreciate everyone's respectful reception of my account.

Sock Puppet, in answer to your questions...I was a student at BYU at the time. I was studying for a Music Theory test.

I honestly don't know if what I saw and felt was in my mind's eye or not. It certainly seemed very real at the time. The only part that gave me pause to wonder if it had been an experience in my mind's eye was when I looked around and she was suddenly just gone.

However, I had no prior knowledge of my grandmother being in the hospital or having a stroke before the phone call I received from my Dad, which happened shortly after the experience with my grandmother. That is precisely why I refer to it as a vision. I am not really sure type of "state" I saw what I saw...I just know that it was real to me, and that I wasn't asleep.

Again, thank you, liz. I think your two posts have given the drilled-down detail I was looking for in the OP. While you can see that I do find there to be a nexus to Mormonism (see Drilldown #2 thread--link in my siggy line), I find it remarkable that you limit the import of your experience to affirmation of an after-life. You do not seem to be inflating the experience beyond the proportionality given it by the details.

[_Scottie]

Out of appreciation for and friendship with liz, I will decline to answer this."

I understand. I am asking this honestly. Is there some scientific study that gives a satisfying explanation regarding foreknowledge of an event. You can PM me out of respect for Liz if you have something interesting for me to look at. I just don't see how you can explain away Liz's experience, but I'm open to looking at something legitimate.

Thanks,
Tamp

The first thing that comes to my mind is that sometimes our minds invent memories and we "remember" something that never happened. It happens all the time when asking witnesses about a crime. Memories are sub-consciously invented after the fact. The witnesses will swear up and down that they remember this piece of information happening. Studies have been done where they record the crime and play it back for witness. They are absolutely floored that the thing they remember so vividly never happened.

When I was in 3rd grade, all the other kids were telling me that Santa didn't exist. I kept telling them that he DID exist! In FACT, I had stayed up all night waiting for him, and I SAW him!!! I knew I hadn't really seen him, but I kept telling this story so often that I started to believe it! I could recall in my minds eye exactly where I was hiding behind the chair in the living room. I could remember what he looked like. It all became very real to me.

I know that I cannot ever say with 100% surety that I absolutely know this happened! It's entirely possible that something I remember happening was invented in my mind.

[_LDS truthseeker]

Thanks so much for sharing Liz. It makes me wonder.

I also have a father who has been a death's door for a few years now and expect that phone call any time. Sometimes I think that he would appear to me before the phone call just like you had in your experience.

I also wonder why some people have these experiences and other do not? That is the real puzzle.

[_Some Schmo]

Is there some scientific study that gives a satisfying explanation regarding foreknowledge of an event. You can PM me out of respect for Liz if you have something interesting for me to look at. I just don't see how you can explain away Liz's experience, but I'm open to looking at something legitimate.

Thanks,
Tamp

I PMed you, Tamp.