My First Encounters with Institutional Mormonism

[_RockSlider]

When one has been raised and come to revere the top echelons of the church as the only ones on the face of the earth, with the keys and righteousness required to transcend the veil between God and not only the Church, but the World and to find what is really there is LDS.INC … devastation.

I want to weep for the Stake Presidents and Bishops and lay members, who through their own life time dedication and sacrifice are where the real righteousness is to be found, and yet how quickly the façade of righteousness turns into a powerful enemy to lost sheep.

No wonder the Catholic church had to step down from the title of the Whore of the earth.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey Rock! :)

I want to weep for the Stake Presidents and Bishops and lay members, who through their own life time dedication and sacrifice are where the real righteousness is to be found, and yet how quickly the façade of righteousness turns into a powerful enemy to lost sheep.

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!

I weep with you and I echo your thoughts.

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Yoda]

Simon,

Thank you for sharing this very personal experience. Your courage and honesty should be something Mormon leaders and apologist emulate.

After reading your blog post, I finally came to understand why the apologists tremble when your name is spoken. Great work Simon.

Agreed.

I am glad you are posting with us, Simon! :D

[_Infymus]

I still haven't mastered the apologetic art of ignoring what is plainly written to see the hidden truths only apologists can divine.

Snagged! Awesome!

[_Doctor Scratch]

Has this happened to anyone other than someone instrumental in showing clear factual evidence to the world that discredits completely some of the truth claims of the Church?

I think that Quinn's excommunication was done for similar reasons. They had to go after the fact that he was gay. That way, his historical work, which had been well acclaimed and established, could easily be discredited.

Quinn was basically excommunicated for "insubordination." The business about his sexual orientation having anything whatsoever to do with anything was something that was, as far as I know, entirely cooked up by the apologists, notably DCP. I don't know that the Church itself has ever said anything at all about Quinn being gay. The FARMS apologists, on the other hand, have referred to this again and again and again.

[_Yoda]

Quinn was basically excommunicated for "insubordination." The business about his sexual orientation having anything whatsoever to do with anything was something that was, as far as I know, entirely cooked up by the apologists, notably DCP. I don't know that the Church itself has ever said anything at all about Quinn being gay. The FARMS apologists, on the other hand, have referred to this again and again and again.

Really? Interesting. I was honestly under the impression that he was excommunicated due to his homosexual activity.

This is probably accredited to the fact that his being gay is referred to when discounting some of his work.

DCP stated that once Quinn went public with his homosexuality, his scholarship also became tainted and more slanted.

[_Fence Sitter]

Really? Interesting. I was honestly under the impression that he was excommunicated due to his homosexual activity.

This is probably accredited to the fact that his being gay is referred to when discounting some of his work.

DCP stated that once Quinn went public with his homosexuality, his scholarship also became tainted and more slanted.

In September 1993, according to his biographer Lavina Fielding Anderson, his insubordination directed toward church authorities and his publication of his on-going work resulted in his excommunication from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as one of the September Six. Despite his excommunication,[5] Quinn believes in the Latter Day Saint movement, although he is in disagreement with certain policies and doctrines. He continues to be a widely-cited Mormon historian by researchers and students of Mormonism.

From Wiki.

I think he came out after his excommunication.

The bolded part is something that is not mentioned enough. Quinn and Brodie are referenced throughout Bushman's RSR. Bushman is highly respected in the church and yet Quinn and Brodie continue to be disparaged at every opportunity.

In another thread someone is wondering what would have happened to Bushman if he had published earlier. I think you just have to look at Quinn to see the answer. I know Simon left the church on his own, but the reaction to his work today would probably be a lot more subdued. We seem to have a history of shooting the messenger and then incorporating their work.

[_Doctor Scratch]

Quinn was basically excommunicated for "insubordination." The business about his sexual orientation having anything whatsoever to do with anything was something that was, as far as I know, entirely cooked up by the apologists, notably DCP. I don't know that the Church itself has ever said anything at all about Quinn being gay. The FARMS apologists, on the other hand, have referred to this again and again and again.

Really? Interesting. I was honestly under the impression that he was excommunicated due to his homosexual activity.

Yes! That is exactly what Dan and the other apologists want you to think. If they can convince people that it was sexual sin rather than legitimate historical/intellectual conflicts that led to the ex'ing, then they feel that they've accomplished their "good deed" for the day. This is what I've been saying for years and what I've always objected to, mainly because it's totally wrong!.

This is probably accredited to the fact that his being gay is referred to when discounting some of his work.

DCP stated that once Quinn went public with his homosexuality, his scholarship also became tainted and more slanted.

Precisely. This ties in neatly (or maliciously?) with that passage I cited in that "Texas Prof" thread, where DCP says that the "degeneracy" of homosexual "Korihors" taints the texts they produce. When you think about it, it's really pretty appalling: these guys are preying upon Mormons' prejudices. Given how much TBMs complain about bigotry and discrimination, this goes well beyond hypocrisy.

I think he came out after his excommunication.

The bolded part is something that is not mentioned enough. Quinn and Brodie are referenced throughout Bushman's RSR.

In another thread someone is wondering what would have happened to Bushman if he had published earlier. I think you just have to look at Quinn to see the answer. I know Simon left the church on his own, but the reaction to his work today would probably be a lot more subdued. We seem to have a history of shooting the messenger and then incorporating their work.

If I recall correctly, he publicly came out in 1996 or thereabouts. It was at least a few years *after* the excommunication. And I agree with you that Bushman would have gotten into trouble had he published RSR back then. I've said this before, but I think that Quinn's works (and Brodie's, Brooks, etc.) really helped to pave the way for something like RSR. The "cat was out of the bag" at that point, so to speak, so Bushman could publish without too much fear of retribution from the Church.

[_ldsfaqs]

I "laughed" at Murphy DNA (then Southerton).....

Mormons had LONG known that most natives of the America's were of Asiatic decent.
There was nothing "new" by such a revelation.
Lamanites were always everyone Non-Nephite, and the Book of Mormon's version of the Bibles "Gentile".

Mormons NEVER have believed that Lamanites were "only" those descended from Lamen/Lemuel.

That was an anti-mormon strawman created by Murphy and Southerton.

Further, Murphy and Southerton misused the DNA sciences to make their claims.
There are many problems with their claims, but the most important one they entirely ignore is the fact that due to genetic drift, Lehi's DNA, whatever it was, WOULD in fact be in most natives of the America's, because enough time has passed. Yes, it wouldn't be the dominant/detectable DNA (again whatever it was), but it would be in nearly every native.

Thus, either way you cut it, anti-mormon claims concerning the DNA somehow "debunking Mormonism" is ONE BIG LIE!!!!
I and other LDS had LONG resolved the issues of DNA and Mormonism well before DNA came out. Anti-mormons long before had used "body typing" study's to try and debunk Mormonism. DNA was simply a "new" version of that same theme, a new "twist" on the same anti-mormon argument. It wasn't true then, and it's not true now.

[_SteelHead]

Faqs,
When you contradict what the brethren teach... Does it mean you are wrong or that they are wrong?