City Creek Totals are in: $5 Billion Dollars

[_Jason Bourne]

Also, how do you calculate $500 million in fast offering?
The best estimate for tithing income worldwide is $2 billion per year (based on UK published financial accounts £27 million tithing per 186,000 claimed membership). I don't believe members stump up 2.5% of their gross on fast offering as an average.

I have heard tithing runs about $6 Billion a year which I think comes from the book by Ostling, the Time reporter.

FO I figure an average ward must give out about $20k a year at least in FO assistance. I did about $40k-$50k per year and I would say my ward was a bit on the poorer side but not terribly so. $20k per unit and there are over 26,000 wards and branches so 20k*26,000=$520,000,000. This could be way off because it is a rough estimate and wards in poorer countries may have higher numbers assisted at a lower amount per person than a US ward.

[_Buffalo]

It's not gonna matter any more, Jason. Just because you designate "Fast Offering" or "Humanitarian Aid" on your tithing slip, the church can and will put your donation wherever they damn well please... and that includes GA salaries, business building projects, etc., none of which will ever be reported in a transparent annual report.

When did the tithe slip change to say that? I have not seen one yet. If this is the case I will have to reconsider my normally generous fast offering contributions as well as my monthly support of the LDS Humanitarian Aid Fund.

I'd divert all of it to a proper charity, like the Red Cross or UNICEF.

[_Simon Southerton]

http://www.hauteliving.com/2011/05/worl ... ping-mall/

"In May 2007, plans were first announced for the most expensive shopping mall in the world, the Bawadi Shopping Mall in Dubai. The project was supposed to finish in 2012, but slowed down due to financial setbacks in 2008. Although having been delayed a bit, the incredible structure was initially commissioned for $2.7 billion, making the 4,000,000-square foot supermall the most expensive in the world, far surpassing China’s $1.3 billion New South China Mall."

Anyone know why City Creek is being overlooked? Too much residential not enough mall?

[_moksha]

... but the Church can spend it on whatever they want regardless of your wishes and purpose for donating.

Which in turn allows for the denial that any tithing funds where ever used for building this, that or whatever. When apologists run this shell game, just point to all the shells.

[_Drifting]

from another website

http://www.providentliving.org/welfare/pdf/WelfareFactSheet.pdf

Humanitarian assistance rendered (1985-2009)
Cash Donations $327.6 million
Value of Material Assistance $884.6 million

The value of material assistance is a wild guess from materials donated by members and not directly out of the church's pocket. We will assume that it actually came from the church directly for simplicity.

Let's look at the numbers.

Total number of years: 25 years
Total amount of aid: $1,212.2 million (cash 327.6 + materials 884.6)

Amount of aid per year: ($1,212.2 / 25 year) = $48.5 million per year

Let's assume an average of 12 million members of the church over that 25 year time span.

($80.8 / 12) = $6.73 per member given in charitable aid per year!!!

[_Daheshist]

ZCMI Mall was at the East of what is now City Creek. ZCMI was a perfectly good Mall. True, the Crossroads Mall (at what is the West of City Creek) was dying, thanks to Gateway Mall which is 3 blocks West of it. Now, City Creek will eventually turn Gateway into a ghost-town overrun with the homeless. I can see Gateway becoming BYU-Salt Lake or Utah State University Salt Lake Campus in about 5 years.

I suggested to Church leaders years ago, to turn the Crossroads Mall into a place where visitors to temple square could get a free meal and a place to rest after a tour of Temple Square. Its damn hot and tiring especially in the Summer months pm Temple Square. You give everyone who has a tour a "ticket" for a free meal at the Crossroads food court. But, of course, I was ignored. Hinckley wanted a multi-billion dollar Mall next to Temple Square, where only the rich and well-to-do can afford to shop, to keep the rich Mormons close and the richer Mormons closer to the beloved Brethren.

If Utah Media had any balls, they'd do an investigation of how owns the construction companies that got most of that five billions dollars. I think they'd find some familiar family names. Of course, Utah media has no balls when it comes to the Church.

[_Drifting]

The Bishop of our small ward recently put a request in for a new carpet for the Chapel building. It is fifteen years old and threadbare in a number of places.

The request was denied because the Church is short of funds......

[_harmony]

The Bishop of our small ward recently put a request in for a new carpet for the Chapel building. It is fifteen years old and threadbare in a number of places.

The request was denied because the Church is short of funds......

He should have asked for trout.

[_Gadianton]

Wow. That's a ton of dough. There's been a rumor going around lately that the standard tithing donation slip has been revised to remove some categories and include a disclaimer to the effect that the Church doesn't have to use a donation only for the purpose as denoted by the member on the slip -- maybe this is the Church's way to get more money to pay for this great and spacious building. ;)

I think you are right about this Rollo. This is actually a significant development. I have theorized for years that the world market for LDS religion has matured and real estate is the first venture of a new line of mega businesses. there is one problem, however. Apparently, the Church's revelation stream has also dried up and now they've sunk 5 billion at the worst possible time. Well, if they want to continue to build, they've got to cut out the middleman.

Who is the middleman?

In this case, it's the Church's businesses. Tithing is held in accounts, interest from the accounts isn't technically contributions and used for business ventures, the ventures provide further revenues, and the process is self-sustaining -- until. Until the business ventures go bust. Now, to fuel visions of world corporate control and to pay off their losses, they will need to seize funds directly from the mouths of the Saints.

By way of contrast, when The Mirage Hotel Casino was built years ago, rumors swirled about overbuilding but the ritzy palace paid for itself in 18 months and defined a new Las Vegas. With membership rolls in steep decline, the Brethren may need to embrace alcohol sales and turn a blind eye to prostitution. If they want to thrive today, it's time for them to get to know their new Lord and Master -- the God of this world.

[_Doctor Scratch]

Wow. That's a ton of dough. There's been a rumor going around lately that the standard tithing donation slip has been revised to remove some categories and include a disclaimer to the effect that the Church doesn't have to use a donation only for the purpose as denoted by the member on the slip -- maybe this is the Church's way to get more money to pay for this great and spacious building. ;)

I think you are right about this Rollo. This is actually a significant development. I have theorized for years that the world market for LDS religion has matured and real estate is the first venture of a new line of mega businesses. there is one problem, however. Apparently, the Church's revelation stream has also dried up and now they've sunk 5 billion at the worst possible time. Well, if they want to continue to build, they've got to cut out the middleman.

Who is the middleman?

In this case, it's the Church's businesses. Tithing is held in accounts, interest from the accounts isn't technically contributions and used for business ventures, the ventures provide further revenues, and the process is self-sustaining -- until. Until the business ventures go bust. Now, to fuel visions of world corporate control and to pay off their losses, they will need to seize funds directly from the mouths of the Saints.

By way of contrast, when The Mirage Hotel Casino was built years ago, rumors swirled about overbuilding but the ritzy palace paid for itself in 18 months and defined a new Las Vegas. With membership rolls in steep decline, the Brethren may need to embrace alcohol sales and turn a blind eye to prostitution. If they want to thrive today, it's time for them to get to know their new Lord and Master -- the God of this world.

Lots of great points here. I'm reminded of some of the strange things that were happening when FARMS was brought in under the BYU umbrella--I don't know if you remember all this, Dr. Robbers. The Tanners reported on some memo that was mailed out to LDS with deep pockets, suggesting that FARMS needed to raise "7 million dollars" to finance some ziggurat-type building for their offices. We wondered if the Brethren "asked" them to join with BYU because they'd shown their earning potential.

There has to be some weird kind of calculus going on, right? I.e., the Board of Trustees has to ask themself how valuable it is--purely in terms of nickels and dimes--to collect tithing from their own employees. I mean, would it be better if they booted out the apologists and forced them to go get jobs elsewhere? That way, at least their tithing revenue stream would be coming from elsewhere, rather than from the Church's own payroll funds.

So, what I'm saying here is that the Brethren must be doing some kind of cost/benefit analysis with this. On the one hand, they have to sacrifice the opportunity to extract tithes on "outside" salaries. On the other hand, they get some measure of control over the Liahona-level donations, plus they can order up smear campaigns whenever they want.

It's interesting to think about, in any case.