Kishkumen wrote:... I am the single biggest and most nefarious liar to ever curse the internet with my presence. In any case, we can all take issue with my lack of wisdom and understanding, as well as my twisted motivations and evil intentions.
Wait... maybe I am really... Daniel Peterson!!!
Yup. That's the ipsissima vox! The Reverend is banged to rights.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Kishkumen wrote:Wait... maybe I am really... Daniel Peterson!!!
Nope. Too much hair.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
Holy smokes total epiphany! Given that scratch != kish ...
Scratch is Daniel Peterson. Explains how Scratch gets all the leaked information, and creates a memesis, allowing Dr P to perpetually be persecuted. He created his own perfect foil.
What do I win?
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.
Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality. ~Bill Hamblin
Kishkumen wrote:I respect the heartfelt belief that some have about John Dehlin being a corrosive influence. I actually totally understand that, whether I agree with them in all the particulars or not. And yet I think it is pretty silly to deny that there are problems John Dehlin has addressed in ways that the LDS Church failed to. I am not saying these are failures of content, but a failure to be responsive to members who are experiencing genuine spiritual crises. The moment the problems that constitute a personal expression of the crisis are brought up, apologists tend to lay the blame on the sufferers. "Hey, there was an article on that in the Ensign once!" or "I never experienced that in my awesome ward!" Anyone who is the least bit familiar with customer relations knows that this is a completely boneheaded way to cultivate customer loyalty. It is a marvelous way to alienate people and lead them to post bad reviews of your business on the internet. And while I generally hate market and corporate metaphors as applied to religion, I think this translates fairly well in thinking about this real problem.
I don't believe this is a spiritual crisis among some of the members. I believe this is a crisis within the Church itself. As I've said, the claims of Mormonism are simply preposterous since they are very Biblical in nature. They involve people really seeing and experiencing God, angels, miracles (like magic gold books), and so on. It is my feeling that if these events and experiences are not plainly evidenced in the modern Mormon Church (which I would argue is a rare thing indeed now), then there is something very wrong with the Church. It is these gifts of the spirit that constitute the evidence that these claims are true. If they are not present, then it is an easy case to make that all of it is a pious fraud.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:I don't believe this is a spiritual crisis among some of the members. I believe this is a crisis within the Church itself. As I've said, the claims of Mormonism are simply preposterous since they are very Biblical in nature. They involve people really seeing and experiencing God, angels, miracles (like magic gold books), and so on. It is my feeling that if these events and experiences are not plainly evidenced in the modern Mormon Church (which I would argue is a rare thing indeed now), then there is something very wrong with the Church. It is these gifts of the spirit that constitute the evidence that these claims are true. If they are not present, then it is an easy case to make that all of it is a pious fraud.
Tobin, I really wish I could talk to you face to face. I know I would thoroughly enjoy listening to you hold forth on this. And I would benefit greatly from being able to ask you questions about these ideas as you lay them out. I say this with the utmost sincerity.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
Tobin wrote:I don't believe this is a spiritual crisis among some of the members. I believe this is a crisis within the Church itself. As I've said, the claims of Mormonism are simply preposterous since they are very Biblical in nature. They involve people really seeing and experiencing God, angels, miracles (like magic gold books), and so on. It is my feeling that if these events and experiences are not plainly evidenced in the modern Mormon Church (which I would argue is a rare thing indeed now), then there is something very wrong with the Church. It is these gifts of the spirit that constitute the evidence that these claims are true. If they are not present, then it is an easy case to make that all of it is a pious fraud.
Tobin, I really wish I could talk to you face to face. I know I would thoroughly enjoy listening to you hold forth on this. And I would benefit greatly from being able to ask you questions about these ideas as you lay them out. I say this with the utmost sincerity.
I would like that as well and to hear your views too. In time, that may be a possibility.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
I think when Jerry stood in front of Oaks' desk and was given the stipend dependant ultimatum "Either you get rid of him, or I get rid of him and then you" he found the motivation to act came quite speedily...
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Thanks, Hasa. I really enjoyed your take. You say a lot in there that makes sense to me. I still find it a little difficult to believe that Bradford did not clear this with anyone above him. It is not that I imagine micro-managing in every aspect of BYU operations; it's just that this represents a special case, in my opinion. The apologetic enterprise is of special interest to the LDS Church, and those who have carried the burden of the war so long have come to the attention of the Brethren in ways many members, even BYU faculty, have not. DCP refers to Elder Packer addressing the apologists and thanking them for their apologetics, and yet Hamblin and others would have us believe, at the same time, that there would be no involvement of the GAs in this decision, especially when GAs had so recently been involved in a Maxwell Institute controversy?
I find that difficult to believe.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
