Failed LDS Prophecies

[_Hades]

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
- Martin Luther King Jr

Are you saying that the gift of prophecy doesn't require the gift of the priesthood? Blasphemy!

[_Tobin]

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
- Martin Luther King Jr

Are you saying that the gift of prophecy doesn't require the gift of the priesthood? Blasphemy!

Yes, I'm quite the audacious heretic.

[_solomarineris]

Mormons do not have prophets.

Oh yes, Mormons do have Prophets, as any Christian/Jewish Prophets claimed to be one couple thousand years ago.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

1837 - Presiding bishop defined tithing as two percent of one's net worth, after deducting debts. This was voluntary and not forced, to quote "Believing that voluntary tithing is better than Forced taxes" - [1] source

1838 - D&C 119 redefines tithing as all surplus property and then 1/10th of interest annually.

1844 - Official proclaimation for all saints to immediately pay a one time tithe of 1/10th of their property and money to the church. Exemptions are not made for those who paid at conversion. - [2] source

1845 - The church emphasizes the need to pay 1/10th of all possessions when entering the "new and everlasting covenant". - [3] source

1846 - Apostle John Page, exempt from the rule as he was an apostle, left the church over what he felt was an unjust and mandatory tax. He further stated that many paid at the cost of necessities for life. - [4] source

1851 - Brigham instigated a vote that would allow excommunication for members not paying tithing or following the word of wisdom. [5] source. This penalty was inconsistent and not often applied.

1873 - Orson hide describes tithing as 1/10th all of your property at the start and 1/10th of your annual income thereafter. [6] source

1896 - Salaries stopped for everyone but the 12 due to financial troubles.

1898 - the LDS church is now $2.3 million (1800's $) in debt. - [7] source

1899 - Lorenzo's snow stated that everyone must pay tithing prompting a dramatic increase in tithe payers. This was about the same time he issued a total of $1 million in short term bonds. - [8] source. The manuals show this as [9] a turning point for the emphasis on tithing and it's connection with full membership. - Also note the subtle retcon in the current manuals. This is known as Lorenzo Snow's declaration on paying 10% of your income; yet, income, interest, or 10% are not used in the original quote. Instead, he simply says that each man is [10] "to do the will of the Lord and to pay his tithing in full.". 10% of "income" had not been used prior to this time.

1899 - Joseph F Smith says tithing is a personal choice. Pay more to be blessed more. This is also the second use of the word "income" in relation to tithing. - (Conference Report, April 1899, pp. 68-69.) -Joseph F Smith, president as of this year.

1900, Lorenzo snow commissioned a list of non-tithe payers in all stakes. "Snow told the apostles that non-payment of tithing 'was worse than the non-observance of the Word of Wisdom'" [11] source.

1907, the church is now free from debt.

1908, Tithing can no longer be paid in livestock, property, labor, or produce - [12] source

1910, Tithing is now required for a temple recommend.

1914, the church releases it's first official report on how tithing is being used. [13] source

1940's, you start seeing the words "income", "increase", and "interest" used interchangeably in publications from leaders and conference talks. - See John A. Widtsoe, Evidences and Reconciliations, pg.285-286

In 1944 you see comments on paying the lord first. This is specifically meant to curb the practice of deducting taxes and living expenses (farmers are still allowed to deduct their operating expenses) - LeGrand Richards, Conference Report, April 1944, p.45.

1953, Income made it back into general conference talks - see Joseph L. Wirthlin, Conference Report, April 1953, p.97

1957 - The LDS church has a $7 million surplus from tithing funds. - despite this, the LDS church manages to go $8 million dollars into debt over the next year and a half due. [14] source

1959 - The LDS church stops publishing its financial reports. [15] source

1962 - "The Church was deficit-spending $32 million annually. New York financiers had to advise against the First Presidency's proposal "to finance such spending by selling Church securities for the next fifty years. The new year looked no better. By the end of February, there was already a $5 million shortfall, and 1963 threatened to equal or exceed the spending deficit of 1962." - [16] source.

1963 version of the general handbook of instructions, tithing was clearly stated as gross income. There is no reference to interest or increase - also quoted in The Messenger, September 1963, No. 87

concurrently in 1963, Tanner revamped the financial structure of the church and "step by step the Church was introduced to corporate financing." [17] source

Another book, The Principle and Practice of Paying Tithing, published in 1965 states that tithing is Gross, and not net. Notice the trend away from increase entirely and the full acceptance of income.

In 1969 you see another conference talk on gross income, Bishop Victor L. Brown, Conference Report, 4 April 1969, p. 34

In 1970, Joseph Fielding smith and the rest of the first presidency sent out a letter formalizing that interest is defined as income, and no one can say anything different. This went to bishops, stake presidents, and mission presidents. - [18] source - 19 March 1970

Post 1970 quotes can be found by searching on LDS.org for tithing, income, increase, or tithe.

1996 - Estimates place the LDS church's annual revenue at ~$5 billion with total assets between $25-$30 billion. [19] time magazine

2012 - The LDS church completed a [20] $5 billion renovation in downtown Salt Lake. The LDS owned mall purportedly came in at [21] $1.5 billion, [22] 3x the original estimate. It's unclear how much of the renovation came from the church itself. After completion, the bishopric who supervised the project was released and tithing slips were changed to state, "Though reasonable efforts will be made globally to use donations as designated, all donations become the Church’s property and will be used at the Church’s sole discretion to further the Church’s overall mission." - [23] comparison, old version on the left

Today, all fast offerings and tithing donations are sent directly to salt lake and distributed as the church sees fit. - 2010 General Handbook of Instructions. Income, interest, and increase are often used interchangeably.

[_ludwigm]

tithe variations during time...

Poor non-english-speakers-around-the-world - as I am one of...

Those writing or commenting on Latter-day Saint doctrine also need to understand that certain words in the Mormon vocabulary have slightly different meanings and connotations than those same words have in other religions.

(bcspace's pet page)


Tithe. The word denotes a tenth part, given for the service of God.
(see LDS.org here)

[_sleepyhead]

I would like to add something else, because there is a specific reason bc's response troubles me, beyond the fact that he refuses to deal fairly with the issue due to religious idealism.

The fact is that in the early days of the LDS Church, the gift of prophecy was exercised with great frequency, as were all the gifts of the Spirit. Sometimes they worked better than others.

But to my mind, it wasn't the success rate that was important--it was the fact that they were exercised.

We act as if exercising the gifts of the Spirit should be an easy thing, or that somebody should be able to pitch a no-hitter their first time to the mound. But these things take practice, and even the best and most experienced is going to goof it as often as not.

The same thing goes with the gifts of the Spirit, including prophecy.

Mormons have bought into the criticism that one wrong prophecy makes somebody a false prophet. (A proposition I find ridiculous on its face.)

But because Mormons have bought into it, they no longer even try to prophecy, leading Mormons to the strange position of promoting prophecy and claiming not just one living prophet, but fifteen of them, at the head of the Church--all of whom absolutely refuse to prophesy anything.


--Consiglieri

Hello Consig,

The following is my understanding of the topic based on my study of the Edgar Cayce material along with the Bible.
Receiving information from the universe is not as cut and dried as it is from natural means. There are many things that effect this type of information. To name a few, what is the purpose of the information, what is the attitude of both the one seeking, and the one requesting information. When EC obtained information for sick people, the information proved very accurate, while his information with regards to things like buried treasure proved to be inacurate.
In the Old Testament the prophets put forth the effort to ensure that any message they received came from the highest source possible. They would go out into the desert for days in order to not be influenced by society. Unless an individual, whether he is one of the 15 designated prophets or just a member of the peanut gallery, is willing to take the steps necesary to purge himself from his own ego, any information he receives from his higher self will be tainted.

[_Cylon]

[Snip] - Tithing

Fascinating. Cam, thanks for that timeline. I had no idea the idea of tithing had changed so much over the years.

[_Drifting]

I too would like to thank Cam for the timeline.

It would seem the requirement to tithe became more specific, more aimed to maximise the donation size and more linked to eternal salvation as the leaders got more into debt.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

“Joseph looked into the hat in which he placed the stone, and received a revelation that some of the brethren should go to Toronto, Canada, and that they would sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon. Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery went to Toronto on this mission, but they failed entirely to sell the copyright, returning without any money. Joseph was at my father's house when they returned. I was there also, and am an eye witness to these facts. Jacob Whitmer and John Whitmer were also present when Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery returned from Canada. Well, we were all in great trouble; and we asked Joseph how it was that he had received a revelation from the Lord for some brethren to go to Toronto and sell the copyright, and the brethren had utterly failed in their undertaking. Joseph did not know how it was, so he enquired of the Lord about it, and behold the following revelation came through the stone: "Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of men: and some revelations are of the devil." So we see that the revelation to go to Toronto and sell the copyright was not of God, but was of the devil or of the heart of man.” - AN ADDRESS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN Christ, David Whitmer, 1887.

- VRDRC

[_Nightlion]

I, myself, in person, got up, alone, in a fast and testimony meeting of the Valley View Single Adult Ward on Evergreen Avenue and about the 21st block East of Main Street of the Salt Lake Valley and was wrought upon by the power of the Holy Ghost to declare in the name of Jesus Christ that the LDS would fall if they did not soon get the gospel right.** That was in the Summer of a1979.
Fulfilled by the Spring of 2009 as duly manifested by the preparations of God in The Apocalrock. Thirty years to repent and nothing. Nothing except most of the Gentiles got richer, and richer as did the church.

**This event was validated by two Elders of the Church who came up to me afterward, neither of whom I knew, and testified that what happened was of the Spirit and power God.

But I doubt it even got noted in the minutes of the meeting because of the arrogance of the Gentiles who refuse to see their own, individual, and undivided nakedness.

Oh, dang, you wanted failed prophecies.........my bad.