Cutting Edge Research?

[_Kishkumen]

No authority? Well, if you mean authority to take any action in any official capacity, you are certainly correct. However, from Deacon, to Teacher, to Priest, to Elder, I took a certain oath and made certain covenants before my Father in Heaven. From Deacon to Elder, I am to:

Warn, expound, exhort, and teach...see that there is no iniquity in the church, neither hardness with each other, neither lying, backbiting, nor evil speaking...to watch over the church always, and be with and strengthen them...to preach, teach, expound, exhort...

http://www.LDS.org/scriptures/dc-testam ... ang=eng#45

No authority? Incorrect.

You have no standing to be the public accuser of a fellow member of the LDS Church Droopy, especially one who does not attend your ward or stake. Get over it. Go home, live your life, and take care of your own business. Until you are living the Gospel 100% yourself, maybe you should take a break from concerning yourself with John Dehlin and the rest of us. We have priesthood leaders. They have their own responsibilities over us. They didn't assign you to accuse John Dehlin and the rest of us of anything.

You can quote scriptures and interpret them any way you like, but you know that you have no standing to run around slandering other members, calling them apostates, and so forth. Just give it a rest. Attend to your own business.

[_lostindc]

lmao!!!

[_Kishkumen]

Paul also sets the Saints a requirement that they "be ready always to give an answer to every man" that seeks to know the nature of the gospel - or to criticize, misrepresent, or manipulate its teachings for his own purposes.

And that is what I intend to do.

Hey, Droopy, whose job is it to interpret scripture in our time? Are you providing the authoritative interpretation of scripture? Or do the apostles and prophets who determine doctrine and policy? What do these prophets and apostles of our day have to say about the authority to correct members of the Church? Do they say anything about any random Joe Bloggs in ward X roving the internet to slander and defame other people, calling them apostates, deceivers, and the like?

I mean, it is one thing for Elder Oaks to get up in General Conference to warn of "other voices," but who are you? And where do you get off trashing your fellow saints as though it were your business?

It isn't your business. John Dehlin has a stake president. John Dehlin has a bishop. They know who he is. They know what he does. They have it covered. Mind your own business.

[_Cicero]

No authority? Incorrect.

Authority you may have sir, but you do not have the proper keys in this regard. Dehlin has said many times that he neither intends to keep folks in the church or to tell them to get out of it.

[_Doctor Scratch]

I'm just curious. They asked us to provide examples of ad hominem and/or problematic material in FAIR/FARMS and we gave them dozens of examples.

I'm not so interested in FAIR at the moment as I am in FARMS/NMI. Could you refresh my memory again and provide so ad hominem abuse from Daniel from some of his work at FARMS or NMI?

Re-read the thread that's devoted to this topic. Or you can read "Text and Context," which is DCP's (or "Danial," as you've been calling him) essay-length defense of ad hominem tactics.

Could you also post some excerpts from Greg Smith's 100 page critique of John Dehlin?

Thanks.

I might be able to later, actually.

[Guest]

And how am I lying, pray tell?

You are lying by saying that John Dehlin advocates apostasy. If there is a problem, I am sure his stake president or bishop will see to the problem. If you would like to complain to them, maybe you should do that. But you presume to accuse John Dehlin of sin in public to just any old person. That is not your place.

The truth is that you are a busybody and a bully. You should mind your own business and leave John Dehlin's spiritual welfare to his priesthood leaders. They undoubtedly know a lot more about John than you do, and they have the Spirit to guide them in their decision making. Or don't you believe that?

I guess God needs Droopy, somewhere out there, to do what the stake president and bishop aren't doing, because God is incapable of taking care of that business through John's own divinely appointed priesthood leaders?

What's your argument here Droopy? How do you fit into the LDS Church's doctrines, procedures, and governance, such that you have a standing to pick out anyone you might hear of, anywhere in the Church, and begin to accuse them on the internet? I always read that the Lord's House is a house of order. I guess you think it is more like a virtual mob on the internet.

[_Droopy]

You have no standing to be the public accuser of a fellow member of the LDS Church Droopy, especially one who does not attend your ward or stake.

You don't understand Church doctrine. Let me help you: I can publicly or otherwise criticize critics of the Church, call their arguments into question, respond to their assertions, call them to repentance, expose them when they are dishonest and and seek to deceive, and defend the Church in any venue in which I find myself, at any time, and under any circumstances. I already showed you those aspects of the oath and covenant of the priesthood that authorize me to act as a disciple and witness of Jesus Christ in all the world.

Then, of course, there is this:

Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life. (Mosiah 18:9)

There. Now you have been further edjumecated.

Until you are living the Gospel 100% yourself, maybe you should take a break from concerning yourself with John Dehlin and the rest of us.

Sorry, but I don't have to be living the gospel 100% to magnify and rise to my responsibilities according to the oath and covenant of the priesthood. Even if such were possible (which the Church does not teach that it is, in this life), what is required is a valient, diligent, and comitted striving and struggling, on a continual basis, to live the gospel, and always be in process of repentance and improvement.

It is the way I am facing and the trajectory of my movement, not 100% mastery of all things that is the key. You're sophistry in the name of shielding the obviously fragile flower known as John Delin here is a bit too facile for my taste, and too easy to flush down to its well deserved doom.

We have priesthood leaders. They have their own responsibilities over us. They didn't assign you to accuse John Dehlin and the rest of us of anything.

They don't have to. I am a disciple of Christ, a holder of his priesthood, and a witness and defender of Him and his Church at all times, and in all places, according to my covenants.

Frightening, isn't it?

[_Droopy]

No authority? Incorrect.

Authority you may have sir, but you do not have the proper keys in this regard. Dehlin has said many times that he neither intends to keep folks in the church or to tell them to get out of it.

He has been quite clear and unequivocal that the core mission of Mormon Stories is to assist members of the Church in leaving it and to make their transition out of the Church as emotionally and psychologically comfortable as possible.

[_Kishkumen]

You don't understand Church doctrine. Let me help you: I can publically or otherwise criticise, call to repentance, and defend the Church in any venue in which I find myself, at any time, and under any circumstances. I already showed you those aspects of the oath and covenant of the priesthood that authorize me to act as a disciple and witness of Jesus Christ in all the world.

No, Droopy. You don't understand Church government as laid out in the scriptures and upheld by the apostles and prophets in our time. No one has authorized any member in any place at any time to be an Accuser at Large for the Church in the world. Instead, there is an order to the government of the Church in which those who hold the keys and have the stewardship make those calls, not "some guy" in the South with an internet connection and an axe to grind.

Have you received a calling to accuse people online? Were you set apart by your priesthood leaders to do this? Is it your place to decide that John Dehlin's stake president and bishop are inadequate to the task of seeing to his repentance process? Do they not have the Holy Spirit to guide them in making these calls?

How about this, Droopy? What would you think if someone were to hire private detectives to watch people and see if they were not living the Gospel, and then run a service that published their sins before the world, so that they could make sure they were calling them to repentance in accordance with your interpretation of scripture? Maybe they could start with you?

[_Droopy]

Text and Context is not a defense of ad hominem attacks in scholarly literature, but a critique of Metcalf's New Approaches to the Book of Mormon.

Re-read what thread? Could you post a link please?