How to really piss off real life TBMs

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_Wilma Fingerdoo
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Re: How to really piss off real life TBMs

Post by _Wilma Fingerdoo »

ldsfaqs wrote:
Drifting wrote:Was Brigham Young the second Prophet of the Church polygamous?


And if he was, what did Joseph do that was different, apart from firing blanks?


Joseph only had one actual wife. He only lived with one wife and likely only had relations with one wife. Emma made him promise that she was his only wife.

If Joseph was having "sex" with all these women, you wouldn't have been able to be sealed to already married women.

Joseph's marriages were "sealings", no different than sealings of children, etc.


And yet he was caught sticking his priesthood into Fanny's fanny. I wonder how many times the angel had to pull out his flaming sword to keep Joseph motivated?
_Themis
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Re: How to really piss off real life TBMs

Post by _Themis »

ldsfaqs wrote:
Themis wrote:I get my information from historical records. The same ones apologists use. I wonder why they disagree with you here.


Actually, you omit and pervert history to make your judgments. Yes, some have been lazy and don't differentiate the difference between a sealing and actual polygamy just accepting the anti-mormon narrative at face value, and some are lazy to not evaluate carefully the so-called testimony's of those who in court who indicated certain things, again, simply accepting the anti-mormon narrative at face value.

I have heard your little story, but I don't buy it. I am not anti-Mormon anyways. I just realize it is a man-made church like all the rest.


You can think I'm "lying" all you want, but it's the truth.
As to you thinking it man-made like any other..... do you really think you're the only one to ever think that? I did, and it's a false judgment based on incomplete information and bigotry.


One thing I realize is that you can't cure stupid, and you are stupid. My information does not come from anti sources, and almost every apologists I know accepts Joseph did marry many women and have sex with some of them. The evidence is available from fair and farms, but I guess ldsfaqs thinks those are anti-Mormon sites. I suppose Todd Compton is an anti as well. Everyone is an anti but ldsfaqs.
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_KevinSim
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Re: How to really piss off real life TBMs

Post by _KevinSim »

Themis wrote:My information does not come from anti sources, and almost every apologists I know accepts Joseph did marry many women and have sex with some of them. The evidence is available from fair and farms, but I guess ldsfaqs thinks those are anti-Mormon sites. I suppose Todd Compton is an anti as well. Everyone is an anti but ldsfaqs.

I sincerely hope that doesn't make me an anti. At least I don't want to be an anti.

Todd Compton is definitely not an anti. He's also not a defender of Mormonism. He put himself squarely in the middle, not trying to promote the Church nor tear it down; and let me tell you that centrist position was very refreshing. After a while you just get tired of hearing either people who praise Joseph Smith or call him completely evil.

If DNA evidence does prove that Joseph Smith was the biological father of Josephine Lyon, then obviously Smith had sex with Josephine's mother (was it Sylvia Sessions?). If the evidence doesn't prove that Smith was Josephine's biological father, then the question would arise, how could as fertile a man as Smith was have sex with so many women without impregnating any of them? Mary (was it Rollins?) said he had sex with her, but is that really the best way to explain the lack of pregnancies? Perhaps Joseph Smith was as reluctant to actually have sex with any of his plural wives as Brigham Young originally was.
KevinSim

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_KevinSim
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Re: How to really piss off real life TBMs

Post by _KevinSim »

Wilma Fingerdoo wrote:And yet he was caught sticking his priesthood into Fanny's fanny. I wonder how many times the angel had to pull out his flaming sword to keep Joseph motivated?

Wilma, if you know Joseph Smith was sticking anything into "Fanny's fanny," then you know more than I do. What exactly is it documented that Smith did to Fanny? I know that Emma didn't like it, and Oliver Cowdery also didn't like it, but do we have any documentation telling us for certain what it was that Emma and Oliver didn't like?
KevinSim

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_Chap
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Re: How to really piss off real life TBMs

Post by _Chap »

Could we perhaps have a pinned thread on this board about the Temple Lot Case? In this legal dispute, it became important for the Salt Lake LDS church to prove that Joseph Smith's liasons with women other than Emma Hale Smith were consummated. They therefore asked a number of these women to swear affidavits, which they did, stating clearly that they had sexual relations with Smith.

See for instance this summary of the position:

3. But did Joseph Smith obey the commandment and have sex with his wives?

Compton writes:
"Because of claims by Reorganized Latter-day Saints that Joseph was not really married polygamously in the full (i.e., sexual) sense of the term, Utah Mormons (including Joseph's wives) affirmed repeatedly that Joseph had physical sexual relations with his plural wives-despite the Victorian conventions in nineteenth-century American religion which otherwise would have prevented mention of sexual relations in marriage."

- Faithful Mormon Melissa Lott (Smith Willes) testified that she had been Joseph's wife "in very deed." (Affidavit of Melissa Willes, 3 Aug. 1893, Temple Lot case, 98, 105; Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 156.)

- In a court affidavit, faithful Mormon Joseph Noble wrote that Joseph told him he had spent the night with Louisa Beaman. (Temple Lot Case, 427)

- Emily D. Partridge (Smith Young) said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him. (Temple Lot case (complete transcript), 364, 367, 384; see Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 15.)

In total, 13 faithful latter-day saint women who were married to Joseph Smith swore court affidavits that they had sexual relations with him.

- Joseph Smith's personal secretary records that on May 22nd, 1843, Smith's first wife Emma found Joseph and Eliza Partridge secluded in an upstairs bedroom at the Smith home. Emma was devastated.
William Clayton's journal entry for 23 May (see Smith, 105-106)

- Smith's secretary William Clayton also recorded a visit to young Almera Johnson on May 16, 1843: "Prest. Joseph and I went to B[enjamin] F. Johnsons to sleep." Johnson himself later noted that on this visit Smith stayed with Almera "as man and wife" and "occupied the same room and bed with my sister, that the previous month he had occupied with the daughter of the late Bishop Partridge as his wife." Almera Johnson also confirmed her secret marriage to Joseph Smith: "I lived with the prophet Joseph as his wife and he visited me at the home of my brother Benjamin F." (Zimmerman, I Knew the Prophets, 44. See also "The Origin of Plural Marriage, Joseph F. Smith, Jr., Deseret News Press, page 70-71.)

- Faithful Mormon and Stake President Angus Cannon told Joseph Smith's son: "Brother Heber C. Kimball, I am informed, asked [Eliza R. Snow] the question if she was not a virgin although married to Joseph Smith and afterwards to Brigham Young, when she replied in a private gathering, "I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that."" (Stake President Angus M. Cannon, statement of interview with Joseph III, 23, LDS archives.)


You can read the whole judgement of the circuit court of 1894 here:

http://www.archive.org/stream/decisiono ... 2/mode/2up

It is interesting how sceptically the judge treats the claims of the Salt Lake church to be the legitimate successors of Joseph Smith's church. He underlines (pages 42 -43) the difficult position of the Salt Lake church in insisting that Joseph Smith did practice polygamy, in face of strong contemporary denials by his church that he did any such thing.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Themis
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Re: How to really piss off real life TBMs

Post by _Themis »

KevinSim wrote:I sincerely hope that doesn't make me an anti. At least I don't want to be an anti.

Todd Compton is definitely not an anti. He's also not a defender of Mormonism. He put himself squarely in the middle, not trying to promote the Church nor tear it down; and let me tell you that centrist position was very refreshing. After a while you just get tired of hearing either people who praise Joseph Smith or call him completely evil.


We are all anti-Mormons, unless you agree with ldsfaqs. Even you know some of his wives said they had sex with Joseph.

If DNA evidence does prove that Joseph Smith was the biological father of Josephine Lyon, then obviously Smith had sex with Josephine's mother (was it Sylvia Sessions?). If the evidence doesn't prove that Smith was Josephine's biological father, then the question would arise, how could as fertile a man as Smith was have sex with so many women without impregnating any of them? Mary (was it Rollins?) said he had sex with her, but is that really the best way to explain the lack of pregnancies? Perhaps Joseph Smith was as reluctant to actually have sex with any of his plural wives as Brigham Young originally was.


I covered this in a post directed to you.

On another thread they are discussing why polygamous wives have less children then monogamous ones. Access to these wives would have been very limited, and he was accused of abortions for some of his wives. This explains a lot.


I think we could agree that Joseph probably did not have access to these women for sex very often, and whose says he didn't get some pregnant. He was accused of having some of his wives get abortions. Given that they were trying at this time to keep the practice of multiple wives secret, it seems reasonable that certain precautions would take place like they do today. Avoid sex if you know you are close to that period that pregnancy can take place. Since he would have little time and access to these women, it wouldn't be to hard even if not perfect, and again abortions explains a lot.
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_KevinSim
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Re: How to really piss off real life TBMs

Post by _KevinSim »

Themis wrote:On another thread they are discussing why polygamous wives have less children then monogamous ones. Access to these wives would have been very limited, and he was accused of abortions for some of his wives. This explains a lot.

Themis, are you saying that Joseph Smith "was accused of abortions for some of his wives"? If so, who accused him? I've been trying to cover the polygamy issue and have never heard of those accusations, so I'd be really surprised to find out that Smith had been accused of such abortions.

I know John C. Bennett performed some abortions in the Nauvoo period. Were you referring to him or to Smith?
KevinSim

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_Equality
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Re: How to really piss off real life TBMs

Post by _Equality »

KevinSim wrote:
Themis wrote:On another thread they are discussing why polygamous wives have less children then monogamous ones. Access to these wives would have been very limited, and he was accused of abortions for some of his wives. This explains a lot.

Themis, are you saying that Joseph Smith "was accused of abortions for some of his wives"? If so, who accused him? I've been trying to cover the polygamy issue and have never heard of those accusations, so I'd be really surprised to find out that Smith had been accused of such abortions.

I know John C. Bennett performed some abortions in the Nauvoo period. Were you referring to him or to Smith?

Sarah Pratt accused Joseph Smith of securing abortions for some of his wives, using John C. Bennett as the abortion doctor, if I recall correctly.

Edited to add: See this thread with references: http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1367&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
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_KevinSim
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Re: How to really piss off real life TBMs

Post by _KevinSim »

Themis wrote:I covered this in a post directed to you.

Themis, in a post in which thread? Could you point me to it so I can read it?
KevinSim

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_Inconceivable
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Re: How to really piss off real life TBMs

Post by _Inconceivable »

DarkHelmet wrote:One way to really piss off TBMs in real life is to share with them what the Internet TBMs are saying online..


Hi DH,

I've found the most effective way to trouble/confound a Mormon is to testify to them that the MLM they're pitching me is the Devil's Workshop (which, of course, it is).

Mormons (except for a few apologists we know) are taught not to argue with a testimony. Great way to end a conversation.
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