Question for Lulu

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_CaliforniaKid
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Re: Question for Lulu

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Blixa wrote:I'd like to see a work that focused on Lucy and Emma together. I think lulu's speculations have a lot going for them Chris, though I would hesitate to call her "founder," I think a similar term, perhaps the more familial "progenitor," would help in reconstructing her role.

So long as we're talking about a progenitor rather than the progenitor, I think the idea is well worth exploring.
_beastie
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Re: Question for Lulu

Post by _beastie »

CaliforniaKid wrote:
beastie wrote:Is it possible that Alvin, or even Lucy, helped author the Book of Mormon?

Alvin died too soon. Lucy could have, but I'm not aware of any reason to think so.


Too soon based on what time frame? We don't really know when the Book of Mormon was written, or how long it took. We only know when it was dictated.
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_lulu
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Re: Question for Lulu

Post by _lulu »

lulu wrote:Wow, you mean she never spoke of religion to her children nor taught them the faculty of abrac?

CK wrote:You asked me how she sought and obtained religion directly from heaven, not what she taught to her children. Instead of beating around the bush, why not just lay out your argument? I'll be happy to read and consider it. So is it basically your contention that by teaching Joseph religion and magic, Lucy was therefore indirectly the founder of Mormonism? I think that's a stretch, but I'm willing to agree that Mormonism probably wouldn't have happened without her. My teachers generally aren't responsible for what I choose to do with the things they teach me, even if my choices wouldn't have been possible otherwise.


Mormonism would not have happened or at least would not have happened the way it did without her. I think that is a pretty important conclusion, even ground breaking.

Your vocabulary of contribute, influence and indirectly are problematic in terms of gender. Have you sent up a paradygm where men "do" but women merely "contribute," "influence," or "indirect"? No woman would ever be a founder with those labels imposed on her.

Of course, Lucy didn't do what men did, Joseph did that, he was a man, Lucy wasn't. But with the exception of Jemima Wilkenson and Ann Lee, and later, in some ways, Ellen White, women religious founders did not do what men did. And they could only do what they did they way they did it by in Wilkinson's case denying her gender, and in Lee's case denying the sexual part of her (and other's genders). It would be unreasonable to expect Lucy to found a religion in the same way that men did. In denying Lucy the title of founder, you are asking her to have acted like a man which in a gendered world she was not.

I don't know that I have the vocabulary right, but I think Lucy was far more significant to the beginnings of Mormonism than either Martin Harris or Oliver Cowdery. What term would you choose for her? She was there at the start, even before the start, if we would not have had Mormonism, or the Mormonism we have without her, I'll call her a founder. But sometimes I worry that that is too masculinist.

PS What's the core idea of Mormonism?

CaliforniaKid wrote:There are plenty of possible answers to that. Mormonism is huge, and covers a lot of territory. Personally, I'm tempted to say either the restoration of Israel or exaltation. Maybe I'd say the former is the core concept, and the latter is the core motivation.


Many religions believe(d) in the restoration of Israel, hardy sets Mormonism apart. Exaltation is an interesting choice but it wasn't around in 1830. Is there another major US religion that claims new scripture from the Book of Mormon to the D&C to the Gen. Conf. reports? That idea goes back to Lucy.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
_lulu
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Re: Question for Lulu

Post by _lulu »

CaliforniaKid wrote:
Blixa wrote:I'd like to see a work that focused on Lucy and Emma together. I think lulu's speculations have a lot going for them Chris, though I would hesitate to call her "founder," I think a similar term, perhaps the more familial "progenitor," would help in reconstructing her role.

So long as we're talking about a progenitor rather than the progenitor, I think the idea is well worth exploring.

Definately "a" and not "the." I like progenitor. I'll work on it.
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"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
_MCB
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Re: Question for Lulu

Post by _MCB »

100% on this, Lulu. Mormon Studies is influenced by Mormon culture. The sexism is blatant. Emma and Lucy are much more important than past researchers have been able to admit.

It takes people like you to advocate for a study of those two womens' wordprints. And me, too. I guess I have too much on my other agenda to get into it very deeply, but as students of gender roles--we can break that glass ceiling!!! :lol:
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_CaliforniaKid
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Re: Question for Lulu

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

lulu wrote:Your vocabulary of contribute, influence and indirectly are problematic in terms of gender. Have you sent up a paradygm where men "do" but women merely "contribute," "influence," or "indirect"? No woman would ever be a founder with those labels imposed on her.

Your accusation of gender bias is way off base. I am perfectly happy to say women "did" things that they actually did do. They were certainly indispensable to American life in many ways. They had charge of transmitting education, religion, and tradition to the next generation, which is not only a necessary social function but also a major vector of intellectual influence. None of the events in history, frankly, would have been possible without them. And, of course, many women threw off the shackles of institutional sexism in various ways and played important public roles as doers, thinkers, speakers, deciders, and, yes, founders.

But when we speak about cause and effect in history, we have to use language in an intelligible and meaningful way. Lucy did not found Mormonism any more than Alvin or Joseph Smith Sr. did. These family members may have contributed, influenced, made possible, participated, or even conspired with Joseph Jr. in various ways, but they did not found Mormonism.

It is simply a fact of nineteenth century gender norms that women had less opportunity to "do" public activities like founding a religion. We can't and shouldn't wish this fact away through a misleading use of language. Your "affirmative action" approach to history may have the virtue of making historical women look more important, but it effaces the oppressive power structures that narrowed women's options. We have to see, name, and understand power imbalances before we can hope to change them.

Many religions believe(d) in the restoration of Israel,

Not as a core concept. Joseph Smith took this far, far, beyond what anyone else had done with the idea.

Exaltation is an interesting choice but it wasn't around in 1830.

It was around. It was just in a more seminal form. Perhaps this suggestion will be more intelligible if I specify that I mean the desire for exaltation as opposed to the formal, fully developed Nauvoo doctrine.

Is there another major US religion that claims new scripture from the Book of Mormon to the D&C to the Gen. Conf. reports?

Depends how you define "major" and "US religion." There are tons of new scriptures among American NRMs, but none of them have grown to Mormon size. Uniqueness, in any case, probably shouldn't be the criterion for Mormonism's core concept. The criterion should be explanatory power. In other words, what's the concept from which all other concepts logically flow? New scripture is an interesting proposal, and you could probably make the argument that it has this sort of explanatory power, but I'm not so sure. Joseph was doing things like city building and running for president that seem a bit far afield.

Anyway, what's your reference for Lucy being the source of this idea? Now that would be interesting.
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Re: Question for Lulu

Post by _lulu »

MCB wrote:100% on this, Lulu. Mormon Studies is influenced by Mormon culture. The sexism is blatant. Emma and Lucy are much more important than past researchers have been able to admit.

It takes people like you to advocate for a study of those two womens' wordprints. And me, too. I guess I have too much on my other agenda to get into it very deeply, but as students of gender roles--we can break that glass ceiling!!! :lol:

Thanks for the props.
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
_zeezrom
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Re: Question for Lulu

Post by _zeezrom »

lulu wrote:Mormonism... would not have happened the way it did without her. I think that is a pretty important conclusion, even ground breaking.


Dear Lulu,

Thank you for all the explanations and thanks to all the others who contributed. This has been quite an interesting discussion. Regarding the statement made above, I would like to suggest that millions of events and thousands of people contributed to the making of Mormonism. It didn't just come out of thin air and it certainly didn't just sprout out of a single individual's brain. Mormonism certainly would be different today if it weren't for even a few of these many building blocks upon which it stands today.

That said, I agree with you that Lucy must have been a significant contributor to the fables and theology.

Yours,

Zee.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_Cicero
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Re: Question for Lulu

Post by _Cicero »

Blixa wrote:I'd like to see a work that focused on Lucy and Emma together.


That would be a very interesting book.
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Re: Question for Lulu

Post by _Blixa »

Cicero wrote:
Blixa wrote:I'd like to see a work that focused on Lucy and Emma together.


That would be a very interesting book.


Were there world enough and time, I'd write it myself. As it is, I have more to do than I probably have years to live. And I expect to live to a very old age : )
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
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