Tobin wrote:It must seem presumptuous of me to believe in a God that can actually answer us and tell us what to believe instead of believing in a God that doesn't speak with us at all. I think people that believe in a God that doesn't exist and can't speak with us is more along the lines of being a basket case and a pretty worthless belief.
What is actually presumptuous, Tobin, is the notion that your feelings are more reliable than other people's senses and reasoning.
Feelings are a product of our bodies. Logic and evidence exist independent of us. Humility requires that we submit our opinions to logic and evidence as best as we can.
Tobin wrote:It must seem presumptuous of me to believe in a God that can actually answer us and tell us what to believe instead of believing in a God that doesn't speak with us at all. I think people that believe in a God that doesn't exist and can't speak with us is more along the lines of being a basket case and a pretty worthless belief.
What is actually presumptuous, Tobin, is the notion that your feelings are more reliable than other people's senses and reasoning.
Feelings are a product of our bodies. Logic and evidence exist independent of us. Humility requires that we submit our opinions to logic and evidence as best as we can.
I didn't say anything about feelings Hellmut. It appears you are the one being presumptuous.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
I was hardly a "lazy" TBM. I was born and raised in the church and held countless callings over the years. I served a full-time mission and extended my mission not just once, but twice. In fact, on my mission I developed a reputation as the mission apologist and the go-to guy for any anti-questions that investigators came up with that couldn't be answered.
When I got home from my mission, I married my girlfriend who waited for me in the temple just six weeks after being released. I was super active and fulfilled all of my church callings to the best of my ability and, while I was employed by the Church in the Logan temple, I would often do a session after my shift would end at 6:00 am.
When we resigned our membership in the church it was only after I spent AT LEAST 1,000 hours reading every church book I could get my hands on and I made a point to not read any anti-Mormon books as I felt they couldn't be trusted. Ironic, huh?
I wasn't about to make the biggest decision of my life (leaving the faith of my Father, and the only church I had ever known) without SERRIOUSLY investigating every possible answer.
I engaged in lengthy conversations with Rhett James, the author of "The Martin Harris Pageant" and amateur historian of early Church history at the recommendation of my Stake President.
I practically begged ANYONE who might have answers for me to help me. I eventually realized that the only real answer to all of my questions was that Joseph Smith was a fraud.
I have yet to meet ANY Mormon who has read as many church books as I did in my search for answers.
Lazy? Not me.
The truth is a lot easier to see when you stop assuming you already have it. - Me
Tobin wrote: My point is IF you are Mormon, you should have a witness that God told you to be Mormon. There isn't much homework you need to do for that. Either that happens for you or it doesn't. If it doesn't, I certainly wouldn't be Mormon - that's stupid and you are just fooling yourself with absolutely no proof that any of it is true. Now, if God tells you to do something else, that is perfectly fine with me too. That is of little importance to me, so long as you are talking with God and doing what you believe God wants you to do.
Once I again I ask...You didn't grow up in the church, did you?
As a seasoned Mormon-watcher, I'd really like to know the answer to that.
Tobin?
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Tobin wrote: My point is IF you are Mormon, you should have a witness that God told you to be Mormon. There isn't much homework you need to do for that. Either that happens for you or it doesn't. If it doesn't, I certainly wouldn't be Mormon - that's stupid and you are just fooling yourself with absolutely no proof that any of it is true. Now, if God tells you to do something else, that is perfectly fine with me too. That is of little importance to me, so long as you are talking with God and doing what you believe God wants you to do.
Once I again I ask...You didn't grow up in the church, did you?
Yes, I left Mormonism after serving an honorable full-time mission and only came back relatively recently. I was an ex-mormon/atheist for over 10 years.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
just me wrote:Once I again I ask...You didn't grow up in the church, did you?
Yes, I left Mormonism after serving an honorable full-time mission and only came back relatively recently. I was an ex-mormon/atheist for over 10 years.
Probably the most corrosive thing to a Mormon testimony, besides learning the facts about JSJr and early Mormon history, is a full-time mission.
sock puppet wrote:Probably the most corrosive thing to a Mormon testimony, besides learning the facts about JSJr and early Mormon history, is a full-time mission.
That is true. Of the five boys who left for missions with me, one is still fully active. The most reliable way to deactivate an enthusiastic Mormon boy is to send him on a mission.
That is especially true of international Mormons who do not "benefit" from comprehensive set of family, social, business, and sexual relationships with other Mormons.
Tobin wrote:I didn't say anything about feelings Hellmut. It appears you are the one being presumptuous.
But the Mormon scriptures are referring to feelings as divine communication. Aren't you a Mormon?
Hellmut, feelings are a terrible way to determine the truth of anything. How do you know it wasn't heart burn and because of something you ate instead?
We are talking about people claiming to have seen God, Angels, and having Gold Plates land in their laps. That is purely preposterous unless similiar things happen to you. Without that, how do you know it isn't a complete fraud and hoax? This is true of all other religious claims as well. Without being able to experience the things they are teaching, it might as well be a complete fiction.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom