You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell

[_mercyngrace]

Are sins finite or are they cancerous? God cannot look upon sin. And God is infinite.

I'm not sure but either way, I believe in a fabulous Physician.

[_LittleNipper]

Isn't your God so wise and just and good? Let us all praise him for being so good that he will torture people for eternity for the sin of believing the wrong thing about the nature of God.

Tell me, what exacty will be your excuse? People separated themselves from God by disobeying Him. God reaches down with salvation and man rejected Him. God looks at the heart. I do not know what God sees in others. But I can look at my own heart and know my shortcomings and failures, as they relate to what God has revealed. You can look at your own heart and judge for yourself how God fits into your life... And if He doesn't -------------- well, whose fault is that; your's or God's?

[_Nightlion]

While I always enjoy MG's posts it seems to me that the Mormon God also condemns men to an infinite judgement for a finite life. Frankly I don't understand the concept of an omnipotent God punishing mortal beings or allowing them to suffer.

Fence Sitter,

I think that is a popular understanding of the Mormon God but it isn't necessarily supported by scripture or quotes by authorities of the church.

Take for example D&C 132:19

And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

So according the this, exaltation isn't limited to those raised in the first resurrection but applies to all who have been sealed regardless of when they are resurrected. You have to be a sons of perdition to lose this promise. (Now ask yourself, what are LDS doing in those temples? Yep. Trying to seal EVERYONE.)

According the various church leaders, this process will take some time, we still have to become individuals capable of living so as to experience a fullness of joy but to say that God deals out infinite punishment for finite sins is not consistent with D&C 76 which indicates hell will empty after the final (telestial) inhabitants are resurrected and D&C 19 which makes plain that "eternal" hell is not a reference to quantity of time but quality of suffering. Alma and Jonah, for example, were in the depths of hell for a whopping THREE DAYS. Hardly infinite and yet perfectly effective. Their hearts were changed.

The universalism which drove some early LDS to apostasy, is actually what keeps me in the pew. And the idea that salvation and exaltation are the very same is also corroborated in scripture as well as by LDS authorities like Joseph Smith and Brice R. McConkie. Not to mention the temple ceremony which literally demonstrates progression from one kingdom to the next until we are prepared to enter God's presence - a process, by the way, which LDS are symbolically carrying out on behalf of all of humanity.

"The Mormon God" is not even remotely the same capricious being who would cast off His own and for whom the sole purpose of mankind is to become His personal fan club.

I know I've written about this at length other places so if you are interested, I'll add some links. If not, I still love you :)

As for suffering - I find there is purpose in it - great, meaningful purpose. (But addressing that would turn this short story of a post into a novel.) I do want to add though that the suffering in hell is nothing more than a bright recollection of all our guilt - the pangs of conscience when we realize the injury we have caused ourselves and others through thoughtless thoughts, words, and deeds. That humbling process is one most of us experience to some degree already. For the wise and humble, it is often a catalyst for change (another word for repentance).

I had no idea Mormons thought this. How mainstream is this universalism in LDS minds? I really wanna know.

[_Tobin]

I had no idea Mormons thought this. How mainstream is this universalism in LDS minds? I really wanna know.

It's pretty universal Nightlion.

Seriously though, as MnG states, everyone will have their work done and can accept it at any time. Unless you completely reject and rebel against God (and knowingly do so as Satan has) and become perdition, you can advance as far as you wish so long as you are willing to follow the Lord. Will people do so? I don't know. I tend to believe that we show our true nature in this life and if you are not prepared to seek and follow the Lord in this life, I don't see why you'd be willing to do so in the next? Can you? Certainly - it is just a matter of will and determination to do so, but I don't believe is any easier here than there to do so.

[_mercyngrace]

I had no idea Mormons thought this. How mainstream is this universalism in LDS minds? I really wanna know.

Not nearly as mainstream as it should be. I'm doing my level best to rectify that though. :) It's certainly not a new idea.

Consider this mention from the Teachings of Brigham Young manual:

No man will be saved and come into the presence of the Father, only through the Gospel of Jesus Christ—the same for one as the other. The Lord has his cause, his ways, his work; he will finish it up. Jesus is laboring with his might to sanctify and redeem the earth and to bring back his brethren and sisters into the presence of the Father. We are laboring with him for the purification of the whole human family, that we and they may be prepared to dwell with God in his Kingdom (DBY, 389).

Suggestions for Study
The salvation that Jesus Christ offers reaches the whole human family.

•In what sense is the salvation that Jesus Christ offers “a universal salvation—a universal redemption”? How does this universal salvation show “the strong parental feeling” our Heavenly Father has for His children? How does this knowledge bring you joy?
•President Young said that many people apostatized when God revealed to Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon that all people could receive salvation. Why do you think that teaching was difficult for some members to accept? How can we avoid similar problems today with the teachings of modern prophets and apostles?

The lesson is here: http://www.LDS.org/manual/teachings-bri ... 0?lang=eng

[_mercyngrace]

Seriously though, as MnG states, everyone will have their work done and can accept it at any time. Unless you completely reject and rebel against God (and knowingly do so as Satan has) and become perdition, you can advance as far as you wish so long as you are willing to follow the Lord. Will people do so? I don't know. I tend to believe that we show our true nature in this life and if you are not prepared to seek and follow the Lord in this life, I don't see why you'd be willing to do so in the next? Can you? Certainly - it is just a matter of will and determination to do so, but I don't believe is any easier here than there to do so.

Or perhaps, when the blinders are off and it's easier to see clearly, the same people who chose to follow Christ once, will choose Him again. That would be, according to LDS theology, all of us.

"I believe that there will be very few indeed of those spirits [in spirit prison] who will not gladly receive the Gospel when it is carried to them. The circumstances there will be a thousand times more favorable." ~ Pres. Lorenzo Snow

[_Nightlion]

I had no idea Mormons thought this. How mainstream is this universalism in LDS minds? I really wanna know.

Not nearly as mainstream as it should be. I'm doing my level best to rectify that though. :) It's certainly not a new idea.

Consider this mention from the Teachings of Brigham Young manual:

No man will be saved and come into the presence of the Father, only through the Gospel of Jesus Christ—the same for one as the other. The Lord has his cause, his ways, his work; he will finish it up. Jesus is laboring with his might to sanctify and redeem the earth and to bring back his brethren and sisters into the presence of the Father. We are laboring with him for the purification of the whole human family, that we and they may be prepared to dwell with God in his Kingdom (DBY, 389).

Suggestions for Study
The salvation that Jesus Christ offers reaches the whole human family.

•In what sense is the salvation that Jesus Christ offers “a universal salvation—a universal redemption”? How does this universal salvation show “the strong parental feeling” our Heavenly Father has for His children? How does this knowledge bring you joy?
•President Young said that many people apostatized when God revealed to Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon that all people could receive salvation. Why do you think that teaching was difficult for some members to accept? How can we avoid similar problems today with the teachings of modern prophets and apostles?

The lesson is here: http://www.LDS.org/manual/teachings-bri ... 0?lang=eng

Thanks for the link to the lesson. Hmm? I think much of what Brigham said assumed a competency which is woefully lacking today. Failing to understand what Brigham assumed his audience knew betrays the whole of it to a caricature of the truth make for a false doctrine.

In this ignorance has the gospel been trampled under foot? Yes. Most resoundingly, yes. For IF Mormons understood the assumed knowledge and experience of the founding leadership there would be much ado towards its realization as effectively as all Church resources combined could facilitate. THAT is not happening and so the unfortunate conclusion is apostasy and a barren hope a lie always delivers. Sorry to be a bummer but that is how I see it.

The great fault in all this was never discovered. This is the most dumbfounding aspect of Mormon history. The truth was restored and squandered into ignorant arrogance rather than disciplined into a shining Zion set on a hill giving an assist against this age of moral malaise and disbelief. Failing to capture and own the power of the gospel of Jesus Christ makes the LDS Church culpable in all the wickedness of the last days.

How ironic that an LDS lessons celebrates universal salvation based upon ignorance of what was key to all salvation. I remain dumbfounded. It has done me no good in forty years to unfold the error. The people are past feeling and have left off wondering about it long, long ago, before I was even born.

[_Nightlion]

Seriously though, as MnG states, everyone will have their work done and can accept it at any time. Unless you completely reject and rebel against God (and knowingly do so as Satan has) and become perdition, you can advance as far as you wish so long as you are willing to follow the Lord. Will people do so? I don't know. I tend to believe that we show our true nature in this life and if you are not prepared to seek and follow the Lord in this life, I don't see why you'd be willing to do so in the next? Can you? Certainly - it is just a matter of will and determination to do so, but I don't believe is any easier here than there to do so.

Or perhaps, when the blinders are off and it's easier to see clearly, the same people who chose to follow Christ once, will choose Him again. That would be, according to LDS theology, all of us.

"I believe that there will be very few indeed of those spirits [in spirit prison] who will not gladly receive the Gospel when it is carried to them. The circumstances there will be a thousand times more favorable." ~ Pres. Lorenzo Snow

Prez. Snow LOL oh yeah, lol!

[_sansfoy]

Isn't your God so wise and just and good? Let us all praise him for being so good that he will torture people for eternity for the sin of believing the wrong thing about the nature of God.

Tell me, what exacty will be your excuse? People separated themselves from God by disobeying Him. God reaches down with salvation and man rejected Him. God looks at the heart. I do not know what God sees in others. But I can look at my own heart and know my shortcomings and failures, as they relate to what God has revealed. You can look at your own heart and judge for yourself how God fits into your life... And if He doesn't -------------- well, whose fault is that; your's or God's?

I'm here. God can show up any time He wishes and tell me what He wants me to do. Until He does (and not you, by the way), I'm content to live with some mystery. And your "throw the unbelievers to hell!!!" God would be an evil, destructive being, and I don't believe he exists except in the tortured minds of some humans.

[_LittleNipper]

I'm here. God can show up any time He wishes and tell me what He wants me to do. Until He does (and not you, by the way), I'm content to live with some mystery. And your "throw the unbelievers to hell!!!" God would be an evil, destructive being, and I don't believe he exists except in the tortured minds of some humans.

God has given you His Holy Word -- the Bible. Non-believers cannot find their way to heaven. They made their own bed. They have what they earned and desired in life --- to be left alone. To exist without God is a terrible thing. Even an "atheist" experiences God to one degree or another in this life. He simply chooses to ignore the realities of eternal truth and love. But plays at his own game.