When will apologists finally GET IT?

[_KevinSim]

Because it makes no reasonable or logical sense at any level.

Now, see, that's precisely the problem. To me it makes an enormous amount of reasonable and logical sense at many levels. Different things make sense to different people.

[_bcspace]

Mormon apologetics continues to help members leave LDS Inc.

How is it a problem when someone who doesn't believe leaves the Church? You're a secular guy. Give it to us straight in secular terms.

[_KevinSim]

Well Kevin, I also have a masters degree in computer science, and left the church.

Why should someone like me stay?

I asked my question first.

I have no idea why you should stay; I don't know anything about you. All I'm trying to say is that Sansfoy made the statement that people like me could be expected to leave the LDS Church, and I would like to know why he made that statement. He may have been right about you; why should I believe he was right about me?

[_Themis]

Well Kevin, I also have a masters degree in computer science, and left the church.

Why should someone like me stay?

I asked my question first.

I have no idea why you should stay; I don't know anything about you. All I'm trying to say is that Sansfoy made the statement that people like me could be expected to leave the LDS Church, and I would like to know why he made that statement. He may have been right about you; why should I believe he was right about me?

Generally yes. The more educated one is the more likely they will be able to see the church is not true after being confronted with the evidence. That does not mean smart people don't believe dumb things even with plenty of evidence. A young earth and Global flood are good examples of this as well as the Church's truth claims.

[_Cylon]

And who from those big LDS families likely to leave the church? Well, it's people with more education, who are naturally inclined to intellectual pursuits and have some confidence in their reasoning skills. Independent minded people.

Sansfoy, according to this logic I'm a prime candidate for leaving the church. I got a Master's Degree in Computer Science from the University of Washington back in 1994. I'm "naturally inclined to intellectual pursuits and have some confidence in" my reasoning skills. I consider myself very independently minded.

Why, then, should someone like me leave the LDS Church?

Yes, Kevin, you are a prime candidate for leaving the church. In addition to all that you mentioned, you also hang out on Mormon Discussions and discuss issues about the church that most members aren't even aware of. Many people in your position eventually do find the contradictions to be too great and leave.

Of course, not all of them do. And you may very well be part of the minority of people in your position who stay for the long haul. But just because a trend doesn't hold true for absolutely everybody doesn't mean it's not a trend.

[_KevinSim]

Yes, Kevin, you are a prime candidate for leaving the church. In addition to all that you mentioned, you also hang out on Mormon Discussions and discuss issues about the church that most members aren't even aware of. Many people in your position eventually do find the contradictions to be too great and leave.

Cylon, are you saying then that you agree that my education doesn't require me personally to leave the LDS Church?

[_KevinSim]

Generally yes. The more educated one is the more likely they will be able to see the church is not true after being confronted with the evidence. That does not mean smart people don't believe dumb things even with plenty of evidence. A young earth and Global flood are good examples of this as well as the Church's truth claims.

That's part of it right there; I don't believe in either a young earth or a global flood. So maybe there's some hope for me after all!

[_Themis]

That's part of it right there; I don't believe in either a young earth or a global flood. So maybe there's some hope for me after all!

Lets hope so. Your posts to me suggest someone that has a part of them that knows the church is not true, but needs to keep making that choice to keep believing and thinking there is nothing better.

[Guest]

And who from those big LDS families likely to leave the church? Well, it's people with more education, who are naturally inclined to intellectual pursuits and have some confidence in their reasoning skills. Independent minded people.

Sansfoy, according to this logic I'm a prime candidate for leaving the church. I got a Master's Degree in Computer Science from the University of Washington back in 1994. I'm "naturally inclined to intellectual pursuits and have some confidence in" my reasoning skills. I consider myself very independently minded.

Why, then, should someone like me leave the LDS Church?

Education, reasoning skills and being independently minded do not necessarily make one a great candidate for leaving the LDS Church. In order to leave, one also needs to be intellectually honest and possess a bit of self-integrity.

I graduated from the University of Washington in Physics, went on to get a Ph.D., and then did a post doc at MIT. I had my doubts in high school seminary class and by the time I was done as an undergraduate, I knew the LDS Church truth claims were, well, laughable. Still took some time to understand that self integrity is an important aspect of one's life. Once the decision to be honest with myself was made, the rest was relatively easy, and extremely rewarding.

Sorry to be blunt about it, but let me ask you this:

How can anyone who claims to be intellectually honest look at he overwhelming physical evidence that the foundational truth claims of the LDS Church are false, and yet refuse to admit to one's self that such is the case?

Once one recognizes the self-evident fact that Joseph Smith was a con-man, fraud and adulterer, and understands that he and his associates made up the "revealed scriptures" as they went along, things fall into place quite nicely: no more embarrassment about Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden in Missouri, Zelph, the Kinderhook Plates, Book of Abraham from a common funerary text, Polygamy, Polyandry, Blood Atonement, no physical evidence for the Book of Mormon, Jaredites crossing the ocean in wooden semi-submersibles, millions lost in imaginary ancient battles, two Hill Cumorahs, no horses in the pre-Columbian New World, missing Semitic DNA in the New World, and on, and on, and on. It all goes away when one takes an intellectually honest look at the evidence.

Once one is honest about things, there is no more cog dis, no more lying for the Lord, no need to profess belief in those who deny the truth in public as BKP, Jeff Holland and other of the 15 are wont to do. No more defending a corporation that holds the Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints as a trademark.

Perhaps you should think about it.

[_ldsfaqs]

Mormon apologetics continues to help members leave..


Not only has his actions hurt LDS Inc by helping to remove current tithe payers and the generations of lost tithes payers, but his actions have undoubtedly help any would be investigator to think twice about joining LDS Inc.

And Dano is still butt hurt over being fired.

The most damage to LDS Inc is from within you fools!

Just keep doing what you all pious egomaniac apologists do.....

Yep. I was a fence sitter, disgruntled Mormon who went to apologists and MAD for help and answers. It was the final straw. And how ironic, they still believe it was all you apostates here at MD that caused my shelf to completely crash.

What you anti-mormons can't understand is even your OWN thinking and words.
Just read your words again.....

You were.....

1. Already a disgruntled Mormon, meaning your ideology was already anti-mormon, so of course anything LDS do would be offensive to you.

2. Your ideology clearly ALREADY was in apostate thinking and identified as such. There is no way Mormon apologists could win the argument for you.

Thus, you falsely accuse apologists as being the cause of your leaving the church when in fact it is YOUR OWN ideology, thoughts, and fruits that have created your fall.

See, liberal thinking always has a "boogyman" to blame for their personal problems, whether it's religion, corporations, the rich, etc.