City Creek Center

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_TAK
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Re: City Creek Center

Post by _TAK »

Build City Creek and cash returns continue for as long as the business remains operational/profitable.

What am I missing?


For as long as the business remains opertional/profitable..

CC is built on the ruins of Crossroad Mall, a multi hundred million dollar failure of the church. The fact the mall is closed on Sundays, it's not certain of financial success.
God has the right to create and to destroy, to make like and to kill. He can delegate this authority if he wishes to. I know that can be scary. Deal with it.
Nehor.. Nov 08, 2010


_________________
_Racer
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Re: City Creek Center

Post by _Racer »

sock puppet wrote:Is the purpose of a religion's tax exemption so that it can invest in retail real estate, like a mall, or so that those that pay money into it are 'donors' and the religion uses those donated funds for charitable purposes?

Is charity delayed, charity denied to the current needy?


Exactly. I am not a fan of how the church uses its tax exempt status to essentially "game" the system and increase their wealth. The church has an unfair advantage that for profit companies do not enjoy.

Secondly the assumption that the extra profits generated from the mall will provide more revenue thereby allowing the church to help more needy people is iffy. This trickle down theory is noble, but time and time again it has proven not to work. Instead of all of those funds being used to trickle down and help others, they are instead re-invested in more real estate and shares of ownership in other entities to further a consolidation of power and gain more assets and holdings.
Tapirs... Yeah... That's the ticket!
_Gadianton
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Re: City Creek Center

Post by _Gadianton »

sethpayne wrote:For years I've been reading comments about how the City Creek Mall is an example of the church wasting funds that could be used to help the poor etc...

I suppose what puzzles me a bit about this criticism is that people talk about this money as if it were just thrown away. In reality, the church converted one asset (cash) into another asset (property and other businesses). The key difference being that City Creek has the potential (and is quite likely) to produce consistent returns in the coming years. In other words, the church still retains a value of 2 billion but in reality, the asset has a much higher value when we consider the Net Present Value. Depending on the expected return rate and the cashflow generated by City Creek, perhaps the value is now 3 or 4 billion (probably more).

City Creek was not an expense, it was an investment because no value was lost and the investment will provide returns. These returns can then be used to fund a wide range of church activity -- including providing for the poor. Keeping this in mind, doesn't the investment demonstrate responsible stewardship? Spend the cash and its gone forever. Build City Creek and cash returns continue for as long as the business remains operational/profitable.

What am I missing?


It's been a while since I've looked at speculation regarding the profitability of City Creek, but it seemed to me at the time that the Church timed the market very badly for a real estate venture. The brethren cast their greedy eyes upon Dubai, and sought to build their own similar city, and like Dubai and everyone other baron, real estate profiteer, they may have lost their white shirt. It begs the question to say that the net present value justifies the investment (or doesn't) out of the concept of a NPV alone; it must be demonstrated the NPV is in the black. And further, the risk class of the investment must be taken into account. If The mall generates profits equal to or slightly better than holding bonds or something, then it's still a failure. I'm sure some Mopologist can pull out some "Enron math" to show fantastic future payoffs.

But for me, the biggest revelation was that it shows the Brethren just don't consider it worthwhile to invest in the Church, to reactivate and so forth. Sure, it can be argued they are diversifying, and everyone diversifies. But this goes beyond diversification. It's why I said that the Church had switched industries effectively, from religion to real estate. I also drew parallels to Dubai. In a sense, Dubai is diversification as the profits from oil are so high, but there must be some consideration that oil profits will only be in the ground so long, and they will need to switch industries. It's the same for the Church. They have analysts like crazy, and it doesn't take a great one to see that the market for Mormonism has pretty much matured worldwide. There just aren't many converts left in the ground.

And of course, the question is raised, just how financially successful does the Church need to be? If there's only going to ever be 30 million members, say, then have an organization that costs the membership enough to support 30 million members. Why have this ultra-rich side -- which it won't if this is a flop -- that is way out of balance with the wealth of the members? why should a family of 5 struggling to make ends meet pay tithing while the Brethren paint the stretts of Salt Lake with gold? If sacrafice is a blessing, then well, there is some hypocrisy going on here.
_ludwigm
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Re: City Creek Center

Post by _ludwigm »

zeezrom wrote:
Drifting wrote:Seth, the problems with the City Creek Mall come when you ponder what Jesus Himself would have done with that money...

Isn't there some place in the New Testament where a disciple asks Jesus why not give this feast or money or something to the poor instead of enjoy it now with these non-poor folks? This rings a bell. Anyway, this is my response to you, Drifting, if I find that quote.


This.
John 12 wrote:1. Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
2. There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
3. Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
4. Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
5. Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
6. This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
7. Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.
8. For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.


by the way For me, Judas is not a negative character. The redemption would failed without his contribution. He had the bag, because he was the oldest of the disciples, the most versed. Was he a thief? I don't think...
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_why me
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Re: City Creek Center

Post by _why me »

Doctor Scratch wrote:You may be right, Seth. This may be a case where the Lord has commanded his prophets to consolidate their assets and make investments. Of course, time will elapse, the poor will suffer and die in the interim, but this is what the Lord hath commanded, so it shall be done. Those who could have been saved or helped during the time it took to collect a return on investment will be dealt with beyond the veil.


This is nonsense Scratch. If we take the Band-Aid concerts organized by Bob Geldoff we can see free money for Africa has not worked out very well. There is corruption throughout the culture. If the church would give a billion dollars to an african fund to help the poor, we would see that money disappear into thin air. However, the LDS church does do work tangible work for the less fortunate of sub-sahara africa.

What creates the poor? Most likely the socio-economic system which many americans support: free market capitalism. If you want to help the poor this is where people need to start.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_brade
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Re: City Creek Center

Post by _brade »

why me wrote:What creates the poor? Most likely the socio-economic system which many americans support: free market capitalism. If you want to help the poor this is where people need to start.


In before Droopy...
_Dr. Shades
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Re: City Creek Center

Post by _Dr. Shades »

sethpayne wrote:In reality, the church converted one asset (cash) into another asset (property and other businesses). The key difference being that City Creek has the potential (and is quite likely) to produce consistent returns in the coming years.

So far, so good. . .

What am I missing?

You're missing the fact that the tithepayers and businesses that produced the cash to build City Creek were already producing consistent returns, otherwise City Creek couldn't have been built in the first place.

So, the church already had its guaranteed cash flow. The mall was, and is, nothing more than an unnecessary "middle man" in the quest to feed the poor.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Drifting
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Re: City Creek Center

Post by _Drifting »

sethpayne wrote:
Drifting wrote:Seth, the problems with the City Creek Mall come when you ponder what Jesus Himself would have done with that money...


A very good question indeed. Would Jesus invest the money to serve present *and* future needs of the poor or would he be primarily concerned with the present moment? I don't know but it is a question I am going to certainly ponder.

Seth


Seth,

I think if the Church had invested $billions in something that was going to provide consistent long term funding for something that you could see Jesus approving of then that would be one thing. So, investing a couple of billion dollars in City Creek giving an annual return of 8% which was going to start and fund an ongoing aid programme and infrastructure in Africa would be something I can see Christ approving of.

However, City Creek is not that one thing.

It has been stated by the guy that knows (McMullin) that it is a bad investment in terms of recouping dividends.
So, it's a few billion dollars spent on making the area around the Temple a bit more presentable in the short term, with no prospect or getting either the initial investment back or any regular returns to fund humanitarian or other charitable ventures.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_zeezrom
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Re: City Creek Center

Post by _zeezrom »

Thanks Ludwigm! Drifting, I forgot exactly what you said but those verses are for you. :)
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
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