Newsweek Declares that Heaven is Real!

[_krose]

The day after a very extensive and dicey open heart surgery one of these surgeons visited their patient to see how things were going. The patient said that he had been watching his entire surgery while hovering near the surgery suite ceiling.

I'm a bit confused here. I don't see anything to indicate that this patient was "dead" by any definition, but under anesthesia. I haven't heard of people parting ways with their bodies when anesthetized.

He described everything that happened, everyone that entered or left the room and many of the conversations that took place. Things that he couldn't possibly have known.

Does this mean he couldn't have known because he should not have been aware of his surroundings (being knocked out), or that they were things he could only have known by actually watching from the ceiling? In other words, he "saw" things that he could not possibly have seen from his bed?

I always have a hard time reconciling the idea of a "spirit" seeing and hearing with what we know about the physical processes involved with each. We know that all the parts required for hearing and seeing have to be in good working order for our audio and visual systems to work successfully. And that doesn't even take into consideration the fact that our memories are physically stored in actual brain cells, and can be lost due to a brain injury. It doesn't make sense to see, hear or remember without a body.

[_Mary]

One of the reasons I cannot as yet be atheist is because of experiences in my life that tell me that there is something more.

I'm not asking anyone to believe me here, but it has had an absolutely profound effect on my life and life choices.

When I was 4 or thereabouts I was walking home with my dad, and ran ahead, I felt myself pushed over just as a car reversed over me. I wasn't hurt and I ran back to my dad after picking myself up, with a confused neighbour who had got out of his car, looking on. I absolutely remember making a decision then that there was more to this life than meets the eye and that someone was watching over me at that time.

More recently, when my father was towards the end of his struggle with lung cancer I asked him if there was a life after death, would he come back and talk to me.

After his death, I had a profound experience where I was sitting at a table with my father (in a very lucid vision dream I suppose which I remember) and I asked him which of the churches or religions was true. He responded that it didn't seem to matter, what matters is how much we love each other.

This may have been my mind playing tricks I don't know, but it has given me a 'yardstick' if you like to view any religious organisation or way of thinking. If it separates, or leads someone to arrogance or to think less of others then it isn't of God, because God is love.

That's why I liked the 'end' of Jeff Holland's talk at conference. The core is to love God and love neighbour as ourselves. This I can relate to. It's a universal message and goes beyond any one religious faith tradition, and would include atheism if we take God to mean the universe or multi-universe itself.

[_Drifting]

After his death, I had a profound experience where I was sitting at a table with my father (in a very lucid vision dream I suppose which I remember) and I asked him which of the churches or religions was true. He responded that it didn't seem to matter, what matters is how much we love each other.

I agree with your Dad.

Live life with that approach and it will not matter if there is a next life or not.
If there is, you will happy with how you spent your life.
If there isn't you will be happy with how you spent your life.

[_Quasimodo]

I'm a bit confused here. I don't see anything to indicate that this patient was "dead" by any definition, but under anesthesia. I haven't heard of people parting ways with their bodies when anesthetized.

It wasn't mentioned and I didn't think to ask. It's normal in open heart surgery for a patient to be put in the deepest of anesthesia. Their body temperature is lowered a great deal and their heart is stopped. It's as near to death as one can get.

Does this mean he couldn't have known because he should not have been aware of his surroundings (being knocked out), or that they were things he could only have known by actually watching from the ceiling? In other words, he "saw" things that he could not possibly have seen from his bed?

Both. The depth of his anesthesia and the surgical drapes would prevent any visual experience. I'm guessing that's true with hearing as well.

The way a patient is draped on an operating table prevents the patient seeing anything other than his Anesthesiologist's upside down face and the ceiling directly above his head even before he is put to sleep. The heart-lung machine is (in the case of the operating room in question) along a side wall and at a level near the patient's feet.

The circulating nurse sits at the door to the room where everyone enters and leaves. This door is at the far wall on the patient's feet end.

Unless the patient stood up during surgery, he could see virtually none of the room.

I always have a hard time reconciling the idea of a "spirit" seeing and hearing with what we know about the physical processes involved with each. We know that all the parts required for hearing and seeing have to be in good working order for our audio and visual systems to work successfully. And that doesn't even take into consideration the fact that our memories are physically stored in actual brain cells, and can be lost due to a brain injury. It doesn't make sense to see, hear or remember without a body.

All good points. I have no way of reconciling the points you made with the story I was told. I knew these two doctors well and have the highest respect for both of them. Just not the sort of guys that would make up things like this.

[_krose]

Interesting. Thanks for your response.

It's normal in open heart surgery for a patient to be put in the deepest of anesthesia. Their body temperature is lowered a great deal and their heart is stopped. It's as near to death as one can get.

Well, I'm not sure it's quite as close as it gets, considering all the other stories where people stopped breathing as well as losing the oxygen supply to their brains. As I understand it, a machine keeps the blood flowing to the brain and other vital organs while the heart is stopped. Just sayin'.

[_Quasimodo]

Interesting. Thanks for your response.

It's normal in open heart surgery for a patient to be put in the deepest of anesthesia. Their body temperature is lowered a great deal and their heart is stopped. It's as near to death as one can get.

Well, I'm not sure it's quite as close as it gets, considering all the other stories where people stopped breathing as well as losing the oxygen supply to their brains. As I understand it, a machine keeps the blood flowing to the brain and other vital organs while the heart is stopped. Just sayin'.

True. I should have been clearer by saying "as close as one can get during a surgery without something terrible going wrong".

[_krose]

Sorry to nitpick.

This topic is intriguing, but I never know how to deal with it. Even assuming the stories are real, I don't see any need to change anything in my life. They certainly don't confirm the truth of any organized religion, or even the existence of any deities, really.

So for those of us who are already trying to be good people (good parent, spouse, offspring, sibling, neighbor, citizen, etc.), the confirmation of an afterlife of some sort seems to be no more than comforting information.

From the stories I have read or heard, the most common reactions by who those experience NDEs are to stop worrying about death, spend more time with loved ones, be more charitable, and embrace more adventure. Nothing wrong with that.

[_ludwigm]

Fortunately, I have been in hospitals on rare occasions.

The last one was when my ankle was riveted.
[#img] http://img2.indafoto.hu/10/1/57091_6715 ... 7c95_m.jpg[#/img] (no breasts, no genitals, and it is a Röntgen picture...)

As the room was used for surgical patients, there were many of them for assembling sciatic joint prosthesis' (is this the correct terminology?)
They were unconscious during the surgery. Fortunately, I had the option using epidural.

In that week I whiled away, there were 7-8 person operated with that type operation.
All of them said stupid things during awakening. All of them. All. Three of them did stupid things - I know exactly, because I was the one who called the nurse for help.
One of them has torn out the catheter and has begun to walk to pee. He was then fastened to the bed.

NDE?
Thank you, people can say what they want, or write a book about the time their brain worked with 1/10 - 1/100 capacity.

I've seen my grandchildren running out crying from their room - after a simple dream we can experience day by day.
Heaven, hell, crawling in mud, eaten by sharks - the list is endless.

As a soldier for 39 years, my frequent nightmare is to be late for something...
So, in the heaven people are behind time. Or in the hell.

[_Quasimodo]

Sorry to nitpick.

This topic is intriguing, but I never know how to deal with it. Even assuming the stories are real, I don't see any need to change anything in my life. They certainly don't confirm the truth of any organized religion, or even the existence of any deities, really.

So for those of us who are already trying to be good people (good parent, spouse, offspring, sibling, neighbor, citizen, etc.), the confirmation of an afterlife of some sort seems to be no more than comforting information.

From the stories I have read or heard, the most common reactions by who those experience NDEs are to stop worrying about death, spend more time with loved ones, be more charitable, and embrace more adventure. Nothing wrong with that.

No worries, Krose. You had a valid point. I didn't see it as nitpicking.

This is not the only story I've heard from people that were involved. It's just the easiest one to write in a short post.

I had a very good friend who was in charge of an oncology ward. It's the nature of oncology that many of her patients died while under her care. She had a bookcase in her office that must have held every book written on NDE's, etc. She had some fascinating stories.

For her the subject of NDE's was a professional as well as a personal interest. For me it's just a strong curiosity to know how things work.

In the end, I think you are right. It doesn't really matter. If we take care of those we love and take care of those that fall onto our path, we're doing fine. The rest will take care of it's self.

[_Quasimodo]

Fortunately, I have been in hospitals on rare occasions.

The last one was when my ankle was riveted.
[#img] http://img2.indafoto.hu/10/1/57091_6715 ... 7c95_m.jpg[#/img] (no breasts, no genitals, and it is a Röntgen picture...)

As the room was used for surgical patients, there were many of them for assembling sciatic joint prosthesis' (is this the correct terminology?)
They were unconscious during the surgery. Fortunately, I had the option using epidural.

In that week I whiled away, there were 7-8 person operated with that type operation.
All of them said stupid things during awakening. All of them. All. Three of them did stupid things - I know exactly, because I was the one who called the nurse for help.
One of them has torn out the catheter and has begun to walk to pee. He was then fastened to the bed.

NDE?
Thank you, people can say what they want, or write a book about the time their brain worked with 1/10 - 1/100 capacity.

I've seen my grandchildren running out crying from their room - after a simple dream we can experience day by day.
Heaven, hell, crawling in mud, eaten by sharks - the list is endless.

As a soldier for 39 years, my frequent nightmare is to be late for something...
So, in the heaven people are behind time. Or in the hell.

Pretty sexy fibula you have there ludwigm! All those fancy, stainless steel piercings. Hope it's not giving you trouble.

Dreams when one is alive are often a subconscious way to deal with ones day to day anxieties. Dreams after one is clinically dead are something else, again.