Methodists' 1828 Rejection of JSJr

[Guest]

After being expelled from the Methodist class (although it's not clear how long after because the expulsion cannot be exactly dated) Joseph Smith tells one of the Whitmers that a church has to be organized. As far as I know, this is the first time Joseph Smith said that. The all churches are an abomination phrase of the first version of the first vision hadn't been written yet.

Interesting, lulu.

1820 being the year given for the FV.

1828 being the year that JSJr was not accepted into the Methodist church.

The 1832 FV account claiming god told JSJr, regarding existing religions, that 'none doeth good no not one they have turned aside from the gospel'.

Then, 1839 the FV account is embellished with the specifics that god told JSJr that he should join no church, that their creeds were an abomination. That none do good is quite different than don't join any of them. The story just gets better and better with each re-telling, but if JSJr was told by god in 1820 not to join any, why did he try to join the Methodist church in 1828?

Also, my impression is that Lucy Mack Smith portrayed the Smith family as almost at once believing JSJr and falling in line. Yet if god had told JSJr in 1820 that he was to join no church, why did so many of the Smith's join the Presbyterian church?

ETC: lulu pointed out below 1828 (not 1838) as the date of JSJr's rejection by the Methodist church. Corrected to get the chronology right.

[_Chap]

...

Also, my impression is that Lucy Mack Smith portrayed the Smith family as almost at once believing JSJr and falling in line. Yet if god had told JSJr in 1820 that he was to join no church, why did so many of the Smith's join the Presbyterian church?

Neat point: why indeed?

Oh well, back to the old standby: nobody said the Prophet's family was perfect ... and so on round and round the mulberry bush.

[_lulu]

After being expelled from the Methodist class (although it's not clear how long after because the expulsion cannot be exactly dated) Joseph Smith tells one of the Whitmers that a church has to be organized. As far as I know, this is the first time Joseph Smith said that. The all churches are an abomination phrase of the first version of the first vision hadn't been written yet.

Interesting, lulu.

The 1832 FV account only went so far as claiming god told JSJr that 'none doeth good no not one they have turned aside from the gospel'.

1838 being the year that JSJr was not accepted into the Methodist church.

Then, 1839 the FV account is embellished with the specifics that god told JSJr that he should join no church, that their creeds were an abomination.

That none do good is quite different than don't join any of them. And in the meantime, JSJr had been rebuffed by trying to join one of them. Does seem to be more than mere coincidence.

Also, my impression is that Lucy Mack Smith portrayed the Smith family as almost at once believing JSJr and falling in line. Yet if god had told JSJr in 1820 that he was to join no church, why did so many of the Smith's join the Presbyterian church?

Excellent. There needs to be a careful parsing of each account. To what extent CK's Sunstone panel did this I don't know, I have neglected listening to it. And it remains to be seen how Harper will do it.

One thing that makes me nuts is when the writer starts with the canoncial version of the First Vision and works his way back. No, no, no. Start with the earliest version of the First Vision and work forward.

If you want to have an interesting time, check out what Rigdon was doing in MI when Joseph Smith first developed a First Vision account in OH.

And another thing, although Joseph Smith may have had a vision of Jesus before Moroni, it was the Moroni vision that was well developed first, as Dale Morgan points out. The First Vision stories gets fleshed out 2nd. Discussing the Book of Mormon first and the First Vision second might well lead to some very different conclusions.

PS I assume you mean 1828 for rejection from the Methodist class? Although not written about until later.

[_sock puppet]

After being expelled from the Methodist class (although it's not clear how long after because the expulsion cannot be exactly dated) Joseph Smith tells one of the Whitmers that a church has to be organized. As far as I know, this is the first time Joseph Smith said that. The all churches are an abomination phrase of the first version of the first vision hadn't been written yet.

Interesting, lulu.

The 1832 FV account only went so far as claiming god told JSJr that 'none doeth good no not one they have turned aside from the gospel'.

1838 being the year that JSJr was not accepted into the Methodist church.

Then, 1839 the FV account is embellished with the specifics that god told JSJr that he should join no church, that their creeds were an abomination.

That none do good is quite different than don't join any of them. And in the meantime, JSJr had been rebuffed by trying to join one of them. Does seem to be more than mere coincidence.

Also, my impression is that Lucy Mack Smith portrayed the Smith family as almost at once believing JSJr and falling in line. Yet if god had told JSJr in 1820 that he was to join no church, why did so many of the Smith's join the Presbyterian church?

Excellent. There needs to be a careful parsing of each account. To what extent CK's Sunstone panel did this I don't know, I have neglected listening to it. And it remains to be seen how Harper will do it.

One thing that makes me nuts is when the writer starts with the canoncial version of the First Vision and works his way back. No, no, no. Start with the earliest version of the First Vision and work forward.

If you want to have an interesting time, check out what Rigdon was doing in MI when Joseph Smith first developed a First Vision account in OH.

And another thing, although Joseph Smith may have had a vision of Jesus before Moroni, it was the Moroni vision that was well developed first, as Dale Morgan points out. The First Vision stories gets fleshed out 2nd. Discussing the Book of Mormon first and the First Vision second might well lead to some very different conclusions.

PS I assume you mean 1828 for rejection from the Methodist class? Although not written about until later.

Yeah--1828. Got mixed up there.