I don't think I'm missing out

[_angsty]

It's not like better-living-through-substances is the one-and-only key to a good life or anything.

You are right it's not the key. To me it just adds to the fun.

To you it adds to the fun. To Harold Lee it adds to the fun. There's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't "add to the fun" for everyone.

Plus it just isn't true that they make everything more enjoyable and memorable in a positive way.

What negitive way are you thinking? Saying something you wish you hadn't said under the infuence? Having a hangover?

Sometimes they just get in the way-- even in small amounts.

What do you mean by this?

Can you not think of things that are enjoyable that are also better-experienced completely sober?

Anything that requires any kind of physical or sensory precision is generally more enjoyable sober. I repair old audio equipment (tape decks, reel-to-reel machines) as a hobby. I find it to be very rewarding. I'm not going to enjoy that more if I've had a drink-- especially not with the soldering iron. I also know that if I'm going to be really enjoying a musical performance from a violinist or singer, I don't want to be under the influence-- there's too much to miss. I understand that some people don't take music in that way, but I do. Drinking doesn't make it better for me. I want to be completely present and aware-- a drink doesn't add to that, it subtracts. Same goes for hiking, working out, stimulating intellectual conversation, woodwork, leisure driving, blah blah.. and so on.

Look, I'm not some paranoid noob who had her first drink, smoke, or toke yesterday. I've been around.

I just think it's a mistake to generalize that what alcohol, drugs and cigarettes do for one person it will do for everyone and that a person who just isn't interested in any of those things is somehow missing out on all life has to offer. Not everyone responds to alcohol and other substances the same way. Not everyone enjoys it all that much, or cares about it, and it doesn't require first-hand experience to make informed decisions about those things. Bob isn't living less because he's living on his own terms.

[_Blixa]

If you don't feel like you've been deprived then I would say you haven't been.

Ignorance is bliss? I'm not sure that's always true.

Eh, not exactly. Perhaps I am making a possibly problematic distinction between "experience" and "knowledge," when I argue that that homily doesn't really apply to my comments.

[_Rambo]

To you it adds to the fun. To Harold Lee it adds to the fun. There's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't "add to the fun" for everyone.

Fair enough.

Anything that requires any kind of physical or sensory precision is generally more enjoyable sober. I repair old audio equipment (tape decks, reel-to-reel machines) as a hobby. I find it to be very rewarding. I'm not going to enjoy that more if I've had a drink-- especially not with the soldering iron. I also know that if I'm going to be really enjoying a musical performance from a violinist or singer, I don't want to be under the influence-- there's too much to miss. I understand that some people don't take music in that way, but I do. Drinking doesn't make it better for me. I want to be completely present and aware-- a drink doesn't add to that, it subtracts. Same goes for hiking, working out, stimulating intellectual conversation, woodwork, leisure driving, blah blah.. and so on.

Oh I see what you mean.

it doesn't require first-hand experience to make informed decisions about those things. Bob isn't living less because he's living on his own terms.

I had no clue I would've liked liquor or weed unless I tried them. How can you make an informed decision about such things unless you have tried them?

[_Blixa]

I just think it's a mistake to generalize that what alcohol, drugs and cigarettes do for one person it will do for everyone and that a person who just isn't interested in any of those things is somehow missing out on all life has to offer. Not everyone responds to alcohol and other substances the same way. Not everyone enjoys it all that much, or cares about it, and it doesn't require first-hand experience to make informed decisions about those things. Bob isn't living less because he's living on his own terms.

Ah, angsty said it better than me!

[_Blixa]

I had no clue I would've liked liquor or weed unless I tried them. How can you make an informed decision about such things unless you have tried them?

By listening to others talk about their experiences and observing their experiences. And also by reading about such things. All this constitutes "information" which makes one "informed."

I think you can make a pretty informed decision about not using meth or heroin without trying them.

That's an extreme example compared to yours, but I would still argue that one can know an awful lot about a lot of things without necessarily having experienced them.

[_Rambo]

I had no clue I would've liked liquor or weed unless I tried them. How can you make an informed decision about such things unless you have tried them?

By listening to others talk about their experiences and observing their experiences. And also by reading about such things. All this constitutes "information" which makes one "informed."

I think you can make a pretty informed decision about not using meth or heroin without trying them.

That's an extreme example compared to yours, but I would still argue that one can know an awful lot about a lot of things without necessarily having experienced them.

Okay I see what you are getting at. I still don't think I know what it really feels like to be on Meth but I'm smart enough not to even try.

I guess the thing I am getting at if it's pretty harmless and you haven't tried it then why not? It may be something you really like and wished you tried it early. I wish I started drinking a little earlier in my life. I like it once and a while and it adds to the experience of my life.

[_just me]

For a small part of the population trying alcohol is not harmless. For example, I think anyone with a depressive or addictive personality should be more cautious than average people.

Also, I think people should only try things they really want to try. I never try anything unless I really want to and have given it some thought (of course, that is my personality). People shouldn't do it just to please someone else or fit in or whatever.

[_angsty]

it doesn't require first-hand experience to make informed decisions about those things. Bob isn't living less because he's living on his own terms.

I had no clue I would've liked liquor or weed unless I tried them. How can you make an informed decision about such things unless you have tried them?

If I said I didn't need to actually experience deep-sea fishing in order to make an informed decision about whether it would make my life better, you would probably take me at my word without another thought. I haven't ever gone deep-sea fishing, but your basic ferry ride from mainland Scotland to the Orkney Islands more than fulfills any desires I might have ever had related to being on open water in a boat. I don't really like the smell of the ocean, and I don't like killing stuff, and I don't like fish. Thank you very much. I just don't have a desire to experience the thrill of deep-sea fishing, on any level. That would be the first clue that it's not something that would make my life better, and that I am justified in holding that belief.

I'm a musician. Sometimes I think to myself that there's no way any non-musician could possibly understand how fabulous and magical life can really be without having invested ten or more years of their lives learning an instrument, and then at least ten more years playing live and making records while hanging out with my musician friends. That's how much I absolutely love what I do. But the only way that sentiment makes sense is if one takes it merely as an expression of personal enthusiasm for what music has done for me in my life. There are people who get that excited about skydiving, deep-sea fishing, and apparently alcohol and weed. Different strokes for different folks.

Various chemical substances don't have some exceptional status that makes them something that must be personally-experienced in order for a person to have reasonable beliefs about them related to their own lives. Bob has already tried beer and Loritab. He wasn't impressed enough to make room in his life for liquor or weed, or whatever else. I take him at his word and I don't think anything more than his say-so is necessary. He's got a life that is already full of things he loves.

Edited to correct wording.

[Guest]

Bob has already tried beer

From what I understand is he tried beer but didn't get too tipsy. I didn't like drinking until I actually got tipsy from it.

This is just coming from personal experience. I heard what it was like to be tipsy/drunk most of my life but I didn't really know what it was like until I tried it. That goes with weed as well.

I get your point you are trying to make but your examples would take a lot of time and money to do them. Plus we have a good idea what it would be like to skydive or go deep sea fishing before even trying it.

If something is cheap and easy to do then why not try it just once?

I know you are going to say something like scrapbooking is cheap and easy to do but you would have no desire to do it. You can't compare something like weed or drinking. Everyone would know what scrapbooking would be like before they even try it.

[_Sethbag]

I had no clue I would've liked liquor or weed unless I tried them. How can you make an informed decision about such things unless you have tried them?

I've never smoked pot, nor done any other illegal drug, nor abused any prescription drugs (the last prescription opiate drug I was prescribed I ended up flushing about 2/3 of the prescription down the toilet). Would I enjoy the feeling of smoking pot? I don't know. Maybe. But I volunteered to rejoin the Army National Guard and accepted a commission as an officer in that service, so there's simply no debate for me. Whether I'd like it or not, whether I know what I'm missing or not, none of that matters. I still don't know what smoking pot feels like, and I almost certainly never will. I'm OK with that.

Now, smoking a cigar while out in the field is a true pleasure to me, and I enjoy a good drink from time to time. Most of what I like to do hobby-wise isn't compatible with drinking, ie: shooting guns, doing woodworking, etc. But I do acknowledge that in social situations, a little drinking does grease the skids a lot, and heaven knows I need all the social help I can get.