For Pahoran: Did Smith have sex with Helen Mar Kimball?

[_beefcalf]

Why is it so important to you to try establish sexless 'marriages'?

Why is it so important for the critics to establish the opposite?

Because it directly pertains to my willingness to believe that he was a prophet of god.

[_Droopy]

quote="Droopy"quote="sock puppet"]
Why is it so important to you to try establish sexless 'marriages'?

Why is it so important for the critics to establish the opposite?

Because it directly pertains to my willingness to believe that he was a prophet of god.

No, it doesn't. That he was or was not a prophet of God is dependent solely upon your reception of a personal witness from God upon the matter.

Secondly, when someone coughs up the slightest shred of empirical, documentary evidence of any such relationships (including some living descendents), please let us know.

[_beefcalf]

Secondly, when someone coughs up the slightest shred of empirical, documentary evidence of any such relationships (including some living descendents), please let us know.

Temple Lot affidavits.

[_3sheets2thewind]

Droopy, I think you missed what he wrote, it goes to his personal willingness to believe, so even with other witnesses Joseph Smiths sex life is a factor for this person.

[_moksha]

Failure to consummate would really be opening yourself up to the flaming sword.

[_Zelder]

Of course Joseph Smith had sex with the vast majority of his wives. Most of these relationships were passionate according to the evidence.

If Pahoran can't accept this fact and get over that hurdle, life in the Church will be much more difficult. I would suggest that Pahoran listen to Truman Madsen on this topic. It might be hard for him to accept at first, but eventually he will be able to reconcile.

How do you feel about it? Do you believe there was anything wrong with Smith's behavior or was it divinely inspired and righteous?

[_Pahoran]

On another thread, we read: <Snip the rest>

I realise that some of you imagine that addressing a thread to me somehow creates an obligation for me to engage the arguments put forward therein.

In the plenitude of your arrogance, you are mistaken.

In 1½ pages, this thread has already degenerated into locker-room guffaws.

So if I were to engage in a serious discussion, I would be the only one. I am not going to dignify this salacious garbage by pretending that anyone is genuinely interested in engaging the evidence.

So, regarding the title: the answer is no.

Regards,
Pahoran

[_lulu]

I don't think there's any other appropriate answer to this question then that he probably did, might not have, and we don't know.

Well, said. And in view of that, I think those who say definately not are the ones who need to start producing the evidence.

[_Zelder]

On another thread, we read: <Snip the rest>

I realise that some of you imagine that addressing a thread to me somehow creates an obligation for me to engage the arguments put forward therein.

In the plenitude of your arrogance, you are mistaken.

In 1½ pages, this thread has already degenerated into locker-room guffaws.

So if I were to engage in a serious discussion, I would be the only one. I am not going to dignify this salacious garbage by pretending that anyone is genuinely interested in engaging the evidence.

So, regarding the title: the answer is no.

Regards,
Pahoran

Do you feel like it would have been morally wrong for Joseph Smith to have had sex with Helen?

[_beefcalf]

Pahoran,

I'm serious as a heart attack. There are no guffaws here:

If Joseph Smith's marriage to Helen Mar Kimball was simply dynastic (for the eternities only) why did he prohibit her from attending youth functions where young men her age might be encountered? Why was she kept from situations where she might have met a suitor closer to her age? Someone who may have wanted to marry her for 'time only'?

If Joseph Smith's proposal to Nancy Rigdon was simply dynastic, with no intent to be consummated sexually, why would Smith feel it necessary to lie to her father Sidney Rigdon, Smith's Counsellor in the First Presidency, about his proposal when he found out about it?