I need some help/advice.

[_Yahoo Bot]

What a shame the Church spends hundreds of thousands of dollars pouring over European archives and copying names and birthdates in the name of Elijah but with the same equipment will not make copies of the thousands of pioneer diaries locked away never to see the light of day.

It is "poring."

And the Church makes donated journals available to researchers. At one time I was in the archives frequently asking for copies of donated journals and had no problem looking at every one I wanted. The Church did not ask me for proof of membership. Like most archives, they make copying difficult (the Utah State Archives is even more restrictive) but I was able to persuade them to let me copy what I wanted. I used my camera to take shots of the microfilms.

I have sitting on my shelf at home several copies of journals of ancestors which were recently copied and then typed up from Church Archives.

Rory's objections seem to be to the Church possessing the original and not, it seems, concealing it. But any lawful possessor of a journal can donate it to any archive. There is no law requiring all known ancestors to assent. A past will does not lawfully control the actions of a living person. I routinely see children bequested valuable art and jewels as heirlooms, with a request in the will to keep them in the family, only to see them sold at the first opportunity. Or real estate which is bequested outright with a similar will's request. A lawful owner has the right to sell or donate and it doesn't matter what the original bequester wanted. Nor does any archive ask the question: "Would your ancestor and all his descendants consent to this donation?"

One of my cousins received by will my grandmother's heirloom grand piano, something kept in the family for many years. Although there may be carping about selling it, none of the family could do anything about it. (Nor would one step forward to buy it.)

There's been a lot of law established on the point of trying to get a donation back. Generally, no can do.

[_Analytics]

Wait until the Dept of History manager is in a vulnerable position and then cut off his head. Put on his clothes and approach his secretary. She will think you are her boss. Tell her you need her to fetch xyz journal from the archives. As soon as she delivers the journal, high tail it out of there. You may need to hide out in the wilderness for a while.

It sounds extreme and poorly planned, but I know of somebody who had to do this to get some family records, and it seemed to work out OK.

LOL.

[_Analytics]

Does anyone here have any suggestions for me?

I'd take some conciliation in the fact that the journal is now in very good hands for its long-term survival. I’d try to get the church to make a copy for you and let them keep the original. They must have procedures for that, don’t they? I’d then start the next volume of the journal with your record, and instruct your decedents to continue the tradition with the new volume.

[_Fence Sitter]

Do you already have a copy of the journal and are only trying to retrieve the original, or are you just trying to get a copy of it?

[_why me]

Someone who has no experience in archival research might think that, but no. That is exactly what archival workers do. They are trained to be able to make copies of fragile materials so they are not damaged. Manuscripts can also be transcribed. The church history department like any other rare book and manuscript institution has been doing this for years.

I have no idea the condition of the journal. But fragile is fragile. But you are right that the workers are trained to do the work. Also, Rory seemed to indicate that his father is still alive since he wrote about him in the present tense. I doubt that he can get the journal if his father is still alive.

[_Rory Zoso]

Ok, here are the results of my request that my family journal be returned to me...., NO! I received an email with an attachment from the church's attorneys that I couldn't have it back because I had no documentation that would legally require them to return it. Pretty much, “tough crap”.

Congrats to those of you that called it. Not that surprising is it? Thank you for the advice from people who tried to help.

I'll respond to a couple comments by those who are compelled by the power of Joseph Smith to challenge any slightest hint of anti statements. You know who you are.

The condition of the journal was and I assume still is, remarkable. The excuse offered by my Dad to me was pure BS.

As far as finding “spiritual” moments, thoughts, beliefs of my fore-bearers amusing, yes, if I thought it was silly I would laugh at them. I spent the better part of my life thinking that any questioning of so called spiritual matters, could jeopardize my eternal soul. I'm kinda over that.

Oh, well, I might take the advice offered and start a new one, it would be somewhat appropriate that as my lineage takes a religious 180, we start a new book. Pretty sure the episcopal church wont try to get it out of my descendents hands.

Thanks all!

[_Madison54]

Ok, here are the results of my request that my family journal be returned to me...., NO! I received an email with an attachment from the church's attorneys that I couldn't have it back because I had no documentation that would legally require them to return it. Pretty much, “tough s***”.

Will they at least make a copy for you or allow you access so you can make your own copy?

I missed reading this thread when you originally posted and just read through it with interest. The church has journals of several of my ancestors and I've wondered what the attitude would be if I or another family member asked for them back or asked to view them.

[_Nightlion]

I didn't get to spend much time with it, was the first entry by my forefather. He writes about his village in Scotland being filled with witches, lol. I'm thinking it wasn't difficult for him to believe a story about golden plates being dug up.

Lorenzo Snow purposefully negotiated the Church into the hands of the English Druid Lords because he became a son of perdition lusting for the death of Joseph and to overturn everything he brought into the world from God. I reckon more than half of the flood of English/Scottish converts were dyed in the wool witches resolved to destroy Zion again as their forefather witches defiled the Pilgrims hopes for Zion in Plymouth, Massachusetts.

Go ask Bishop Glen Pace if you do not believe me. He won't know about LS but he know more than he ever wanted to know about ritual Satanism in the LDS Church.

Is he still living? Glen Pace. What did Hinckley do with him?

[_Rory Zoso]

When I finally managed to speak with a nice lady who seemed to genuinely sympathize with me, she said that maybe they would make a copy of it to retain for their purposes, and give me the original. She told me that the decision wasn't hers to make, but she would pass it up the ladder. She was good to her word and followed through. I had been trying to get an answer for over a month.

In the end I got what I'm sure is a form letter on lawyer letterhead. No offer to make a copy, no validation, no apology “it's our standard practice”, nothing. I'm left with the impression that the emphasis on family, basically the entire premise they sell people on, is just talk. They will have it sit in a dusty cabinet dead, rather than return it to me. Doesn't matter that we would have had a pretty cool connection for 7 generations back. Mo church don't give a F***. If I sound butt hurt and bitter, I am.

I just finished my resignation letter and made sure that my minor children are removed from the records as well. I was going to resign regardless of the outcome, and I'm sure they will consider me and mine as no great loss. I have never paid tithing, hence no motivation to keep me happy.

[_zeezrom]

Too bad they couldn't have done more for you, Rory. I was actually hopeful.

:(