Horses in America

[_Bret Ripley]

While you're at it, feel free to explain why a people from the Old World would have abandoned the use of the wheel.

Stamped out by the Travois Builders Union. Damn liberals.

[_Fence Sitter]

It's not certain at all. Domesticated horses would have grown at the rate their owners wanted them to grow. If the culture was such that just one group of people had horses, and the general population did not, then people who bred horses would see no need for them to grow in size any more than was necessary to support that culture.

The notion that this type of population would self limit the single most valuable commodity they had is not believable. We are talking about two large groups of people who are constantly trying to wipe the other out. The group with the most horses would have had such a huge advantage in warfare that it is inconceivable they would not have bred horses as fast as possible if for no other reason. An equine culture has huge advantages over other groups. Did you read my previous post regarding the status and conditions of the native populations in the Great Basin when Mormon settlers arrived?

The Lamanites had horses too.

Ahh I misunderstood your post to mean it was limited to the Nephites.

And I see DJ has beat me to the question, once again!!!!!

[_Themis]

There were no horses anywhere in the New World when the Book of Mormon claims the Naphites arrived here. The idea that there were isolated pockets of horses that somehow survived for thousands of years to be used by the Nephites is ridiculous. The progeny of the humans who drove the horse to extinction were still living here and would have been quite happy to come across the odd stray horse for Sunday dinner.

An acquaintance, who was not LDS, told me that there is also no fossil evidence for buffalo in America, either. Does anyone know if this acquaintance is correct? If he is, does that mean that the Spanish conquistadores brought the buffalo to America too?

Your acquaintance would be wrong. A simple search will show you many results. He is probably just repeating something they heard.

[_Themis]

It's not certain at all. Domesticated horses would have grown at the rate their owners wanted them to grow. If the culture was such that just one group of people had horses, and the general population did not, then people who bred horses would see no need for them to grow in size any more than was necessary to support that culture.

Some have already given good answers, but I would add that technology is hard to protect from other groups, and an animal essentially impossible. It also doesn't answer that the Book of Mormon says they were already there when they arrived.

The Lamanites had horses too.

Edit. Misread what you were saying.

[Guest]

KevinSim,

As you can see, most of the people here are repeating the arguments I've already identified. And as I said, I don't find them very compelling.

We are talking about relatively narrow locality in which the means of transporation is BY FOOT in the Book of Mormon. These people were within a very short distance of each other and the Book of Mormon does not indicate any large use of horses outside very specific uses. It seems that very select and elite individuals used them to pull a chariot for example. That is probably the extent of the technical means they possessed. The response to that is well, they would have generally been used in war because of their large advantages. Given the terrain, chariots may of been of little use. And to fight from horseback using other weapons requires a horse culture (which isn't indicated in the Book of Mormon) and certain technology that they did not possess. For example, to fight from horseback using a bow requires a recurved bow.

The only other new argument is that native varieties of horses went extinct so that means there were no horses. That is a rather silly argument. Horses could have been brought here after that point (and it would also explain the highly localized nature of their appearance too).

[_excom]

Where's the next Book of Mormon Land location?[/quote]
Arrakis, techinically nobody knows where in the Americas the Book of Mormon narrative took place. People can speculate, but nobody knows for sure.[/quote]

I do, they were just north of BS and a little south of, "you got to be fing kidding me"

[_Equality]

Fossil Remains. — The remains of the American bison in a fossil or semifossil condition have been found sparingly over a wide area, but no instance is at present known of their discovery beyond the known limits of its range at the time of the earliest explorations of the con tinent. In the National Museum at Washington are semifossil remains from Colorado, collected by Major Powell, and from Kansas, collected by Dr. Hayden. I found a fossil tooth of this species in Central Iowa, and have received from Mr. Orestes H. St. John a fossil astragalus from the banks of the Big Blue River in Kansas. Professor Wyman has reported its remains from the mounds of the Lead Begion in Wisconsin aud Iowa ; Dr. Leidy has figured a tooth from the Lead crevices of Jo Daviess County, Illinois, and also from the Ashley River, South Caro lina. f Professor Baird has reported the existence of its fossil remains in the caverns of Central Pennsylvania. The alleged occurrence of its remains at Gardiner, Maine, proves, however, to be probably erroneous, as will be shown further on.§ Its bones have also been found in large quantities about the Salt Licks of the Ohio Valley, especially at Big-bone Lick, Kentucky. The accumulations at the last-named locality date back to remote times, since in the lower strata of these bone-deposits are found the bones of Mastodon americanus, Megalonyx, Elephas, an extinct species of Uquiis, and an extinct species of Ovibos, but, according to Professor Shaler, the bones of Bison americanus occur only in the more superficial strata, which are composed almost solely of the remains of this animal. These remains differ in no appreciable respect, in form or in size, from those of the recent bison of the Plains.

[_Arrakis]

Where's the next Book of Mormon Land location?

Arrakis, techinically nobody knows where in the Americas the Book of Mormon narrative took place. People can speculate, but nobody knows for sure.

I do, they were just north of BS and a little south of, "you got to be fing kidding me"

They start with what they believe and then manufacture evidence to support that belief.

[_Darth J]

KevinSim,

As you can see, most of the people here are repeating the arguments I've already identified. And as I said, I don't find them very compelling.

We are talking about relatively narrow locality in which the means of transporation is BY FOOT in the Book of Mormon. These people were within a very short distance of each other and the Book of Mormon does not indicate any large use of horses outside very specific uses. It seems that very select and elite individuals used them to pull a chariot for example. That is probably the extent of the technical means they possessed. The response to that is well, they would have generally been used in war because of their large advantages. Given the terrain, chariots may of been of little use. And to fight from horseback using other weapons requires a horse culture (which isn't indicated in the Book of Mormon) and certain technology that they did not possess. For example, to fight from horseback using a bow requires a recurved bow.

The only other new argument is that native varieties of horses went extinct so that means there were no horses. That is a rather silly. Horses could have been brought here after that point (and it would also explain the highly localized nature of their appearance too).

Count your ad hoc assertions, name them one by one,
Count your ad hoc assertions, see what Tobin has done,
Count your ad hoc assertions, name them one by one,
And it will surprise you what our Tobin has done.

[_Bazooka]

Given the terrain, chariots may of been of little use.

CFR on the terrain.
Please describe the terrain.