Why the truthfulness of the Church doesn't matter.

[_Fence Sitter]

Regarding A, are you saying that God is so impotent that he cannot devise a system that would eliminate unnecessary evil?

No, but it does assume that this world is not such a system. You might argue that the Garden of Eden was such a system. According to Mormon Theology, in order to progress, we humans must have some sort of friction to progress against. Holding this view does not require God to have placed the evil here, just that this system is a 'leaky' system, and evil has entered somehow.

Hey I left the windows open in my car last night and it rained. I just had a leaky system and water got in somehow. That was the only option I could come up with.

Under your category B, on what basis do you assume that all actions from God must be moral? If we do not understand God's motivations what basis do we have to assume that they are in our best interest? Answering "Because He is God", is begging the question.

My only basis for assuming God must be moral is a personal one, one which I think we might share. If God is amoral, I would not want to worship him or subscribe to his plan.

So I guess "Because he is God" is your response.

What differences might we see in our existence if God were amoral?

[_mentalgymnast]

In other words, 'true' is not necessarily equivalent to (whatever 'the Church' is) being morally correct, or good, or sound in judgment... etc.

I agree with this. The reason being, the church IS people.

Regards,
MG

[_I have a question]

In other words, 'true' is not necessarily equivalent to (whatever 'the Church' is) being morally correct, or good, or sound in judgment... etc.

I agree with this. The reason being, the church IS people.

Regards,
MG

Yep, except the Church claims to have fifteen special people with special access to what God wants on the basis the Church is the only one God sees as acceptable. On that basis, the success rate of decisions or how it measures up morally should be qualitatively better than any other religious organisation.

If the Church was simply, as you seem to be suggesting, one of a number of religious organisations that generally promotes good things, there wouldn't be 80,000 teenagers out there knocking on doors selling it on the basis it's the only Church through which humans get to live with God in the next life.

[_Zadok]

It doesn't matter to me if the church is "true" or not. If I had an adult child living with me who stole my car and lied about it, who used drugs when I asked them not to, and then lied about it, who stole money and food and lied about it, I would eventually get to a point where I couldn't trust the child. No matter how much I loved him/her, my ability to trust has been destroyed. It doesn't matter if they are "true" or not, I just can't let them live with me any longer.

[_mentalgymnast]

...the Church claims to have fifteen special people with special access to what God wants on the basis the Church is the only one God sees as acceptable. On that basis, the success rate of decisions or how it measures up morally should be qualitatively better than any other religious organisation.

If you consider that these '15' and the rest of the quorums/presidencies of leadership are also working out their own salvation, it might be well to ask ourselves just what we mean when we say 'special access'. Wasn't it Pres. Hinckley that said revelation comes to him in the same/similar manner as it does for other folks? If that is so, then GA's would have to put in the sweat/effort to determine God's will. It doesn't seem to be a silver platter agreement that God has with the '15'. And do we always get our answers from God the first/second/third time we approach Him? Would we expect this to be the case with the leaders of the church? I'm a little hesitant to look at 'special access' as being quite so silver plattery as you would like it to be.

If the Church was simply, as you seem to be suggesting, one of a number of religious organisations that generally promotes good things, there wouldn't be 80,000 teenagers out there knocking on doors selling it on the basis it's the only Church through which humans get to live with God in the next life.

Oversimplification. I've written elsewhere my thoughts as to what makes the church 'special' in its mission among the other churches/belief systems.

Regards,
MG

[_I have a question]

MG, your description of the top 15 as "just the same as you or me" is not consistent with how the Church portrays them:
https://www.lds.org/topics/prophets?lang=eng

Prophets

As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we are blessed to be led by living prophets—inspired men called to speak for the Lord, as did Moses, Isaiah, Peter, Paul, Nephi, Mormon, and other prophets of the scriptures. We sustain the President of the Church as prophet, seer, and revelator—the only person on the earth who receives revelation to guide the entire Church. We also sustain the counselors in the First Presidency and the members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators.

Additional Information

Like the prophets of old, prophets today testify of Jesus Christ and teach His gospel. They make known God's will and true character. They speak boldly and clearly, denouncing sin and warning of its consequences. At times, they may be inspired to prophesy of future events for our benefit.

We can always trust the living prophets. Their teachings reflect the will of the Lord, who declared: “What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same” (D&C 1:38).

The Church teaches that they have silver platter special access (2nd anointing ensures it) and that they can always be trusted. You seem to be suggesting that they cannot always be trusted to reflect the mind of the Lord, like when they allowed institutional racism for 124 years, but that that's okay because it will all work out in the end. I refer you back to my Bernie Madoff simile, your comments are making it more and more apt.

[_mentalgymnast]

MG, your description of the top 15 as "just the same as you or me" is not consistent with how the Church portrays them:
https://www.lds.org/topics/prophets?lang=eng

Here is a talk given a while back that fleshes out where I'm coming from.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... n?lang=eng

It's a bit more complex and nuanced than you make it out to be. Elder Faust understood that.

I'm not going to take the time to cut and paste highlights from the talk, but I'd suggest reading it for clarification on how revelation works in the church.

Regards,
MG

[_I have a question]

What was it Hank Paulson said....

"Complexity is the enemy of transparency"

[_just me]

I see no point to the church of its just like every other church run by men. In fact, it is worse because even though they are just like everyone else they are beholden to bad traditions and unhealthy beliefs that they think come from God.

Reducing the prophet to nothing more than a regular CEO renders the church useless and worse. The teachings of the church have led to abuse and suicide and murder. And the destruction of families.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

What was it Hank Paulson said....

"Complexity is the enemy of transparency"

Nice turn of phrase. Should probably write that one down.