A Divine Origin of the Columbia Chess Chronicle, 1888

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_Lemmie
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Re: A Divine Origin of the Columbia Chess Chronicle, 1888

Post by _Lemmie »

Kishkumen wrote:
LOL!

Well, my theory is that Joseph was a frontman for a cabal of Rosicrucian Masons including Luman Walter. This cabal planned to use the story of the discovery of the Book of Mormon as well as various characteristics/narratives of the text to rally Freemasons in western New York in the 1820s. Unfortunately, the Morgan Affair interfered, and the text's Rosicrucian/Masonic purpose had to be shrouded in frontier Christian garb. Thus, the archaizing voice of the text is a deliberate signal to fellow Masons of a certain esoteric/magical bent.

Hmm. Did the Morgan Affair in 1826 put the idea in Smith's head that he could sell the B of M copyright in 1829? If I have the story right the copyright contract for the book to expose Freemasonry was for something like half a million dollars, right? Did Joseph Smith think trying it in Canada would have a better (and safer) outcome than Morgan's attempt?

Or was it really a Revelation from god? :rolleyes:
_Fence Sitter
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Re: A Divine Origin of the Columbia Chess Chronicle, 1888

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Lemmie wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:

Hmm. Did the Morgan Affair in 1826 put the idea in Smith's head that he could sell the B of M copyright in 1829? If I have the story right the copyright contract for the book to expose Freemasonry was for something like half a million dollars, right? Did Joseph Smith think trying it in Canada would have a better (and safer) outcome than Morgan's attempt?

Or was it really a Revelation from god? :rolleyes:


I don't think it would have been a revelation from God. If the EMod advocates are correct, it would have to be a revelation from someone on the 15th century translation committee like William Tyndale, who would have held the copyright.

:wink:
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Symmachus
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Re: A Divine Origin of the Columbia Chess Chronicle, 1888

Post by _Symmachus »

Kishkumen wrote:
Well, my theory is that Joseph was a frontman for a cabal of Rosicrucian Masons including Luman Walter. This cabal planned to use the story of the discovery of the Book of Mormon as well as various characteristics/narratives of the text to rally Freemasons in western New York in the 1820s. Unfortunately, the Morgan Affair interfered, and the text's Rosicrucian/Masonic purpose had to be shrouded in frontier Christian garb. Thus, the archaizing voice of the text is a deliberate signal to fellow Masons of a certain esoteric/magical bent.


In the archaic idiom of the Masons, I say: So mote it be!*

*see Joseph Smith's commentary in the manuscript on Figure 11 of Facsimile 2 ("so let it be" in the current edition...also see the discussion of the exchange between Chris Smith and Brian Hauglid, from the classical era of Mormondiscussions.com, wherein the phrase is used by Hauglid.
"As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them."

—B. Redd McConkie
_Lemmie
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Re: A Divine Origin of the Columbia Chess Chronicle, 1888

Post by _Lemmie »

Symmachus wrote:My hunch is that proponents of this theory are better at gathering statistics than thinking historical-linguistically about a text

Like this?
Carmack wrote:This is uncontroversial descriptive linguistic work, after all. When one notes that the Book of Mormon has 8 of an archaism, and the King James Bible has 5, and that pseudo-biblical texts have none, then it is a mere description of an identifiable linguistic reality.
http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/708 ... 1209843110

But a poster named Glenn runs with it, and comes to this rather sweeping conclusion:
...I believe that you would not find many linguists that would affirm to you that a text having the level of Early Modern English that has been found in the Book of Mormon would be found in a nineteenth century text.
_Symmachus
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Re: A Divine Origin of the Columbia Chess Chronicle, 1888

Post by _Symmachus »

Carmack wrote:This is uncontroversial descriptive linguistic work, after all. When one notes that the Book of Mormon has 8 of an archaism, and the King James Bible has 5, and that pseudo-biblical texts have none, then it is a mere description of an identifiable linguistic reality.


Yes, that is correct. It is mere description what he has written here and previously in response to this thread. The problem is in the conclusions he draws from the description. Considering that Smith not only had access to the King James Bible but that text from the KJB comprises a significant percentage of the Book of Mormon, it becomes impossible to erase interference from the KJB. From the linguistic evidence—a handful of dubious statistics culled from decontextualized corpora searches—there is not really conclusion you can draw about the language of the Book of Mormon as an indicator of authorship. Carmack should actually submit his work to real peer review and let us know when it is published, because the reviewers will help him see this and refine the conclusions he can make about it.

But Carmack is bordering on hypocrisy here, since he claims to be doing nothing but pure descriptive work while pole-vaulting in that work to the grand conclusion that the Book of Mormon is a divinely inspired text, because the Book of Mormon has 3 more archaisms than the KJB, for example.

Glenn wrote:...I believe that you would not find many linguists that would affirm to you that a text having the level of Early Modern English that has been found in the Book of Mormon would be found in a nineteenth century text.


What "level of early modern English"? A handful of examples in the Book of Mormon that are also in the King James Bible, a text Smith had readily available to him and one whose style swirled around him in the religious discourse of his time, would not make any linguist conclude that the Book of Mormon were produced before the time it was published.

This is all desperate wishful thinking, and when Carmack retreats into the claim that he is just doing descriptive work, he is bordering on dishonesty, because that is not what he claims elsewhere:

We have seen that some who intentionally tried to follow King James English in their writings did not match 16c usage. Their efforts do not positively correlate with that stage of English: Snowden’s The American Revolution, Hunt’s The Late War, and Ethan Smith’s View of the Hebrews ended up well off the mark. Sixteenth-century texts were not readily available in the 1820s as they became later in the 19c. As a result, the access to the relevant texts was extremely limited in the 1820s, especially to someone living away from populated eastern cities with research libraries. And the 16c printed books containing the heavy use of this syntax were still largely to be found only in British libraries. So a compelling position — on account of the lack of any specific, credible evidence to the contrary — is that the words of the Book of Mormon were revealed to Joseph Smith through the instrument, that they came from a divine source.
"As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them."

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_Stem
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Re: A Divine Origin of the Columbia Chess Chronicle, 1888

Post by _Stem »

Kishkumen wrote:LOL!

Well, my theory is that Joseph was a frontman for a cabal of Rosicrucian Masons including Luman Walter. This cabal planned to use the story of the discovery of the Book of Mormon as well as various characteristics/narratives of the text to rally Freemasons in western New York in the 1820s. Unfortunately, the Morgan Affair interfered, and the text's Rosicrucian/Masonic purpose had to be shrouded in frontier Christian garb. Thus, the archaizing voice of the text is a deliberate signal to fellow Masons of a certain esoteric/magical bent.


If so he [they] did a pretty damn good job making the adjustment on the fly and putting to print words called scripture. People to this day hang on it's very words and consider the whole more inspirational than anything else out there. And Joseph started a religion that flourishes. I don't mean to overstate either case, but the whole enterprise becomes all the more fascinating when you consider different possibilities and theories. If it did derive from what you describe or any other theory its pretty crazy to imagine people consider it all from god.
_Fence Sitter
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Re: A Divine Origin of the Columbia Chess Chronicle, 1888

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Just a side note on the "How could Joseph Smith have known?" or Joseph Smith was not educated enough to have produced Mormonism? defenses.

Today's Mormonism is so far removed from what Joseph Smith taught and practiced that regardless of what Joseph Smith did or did not know, much of what he introduced is no longer relevant to the church.

So on the one hand we are asked how Joseph could've known about EMoD but on the other hand it is okay that he was entirely clueless about indigent native American populations or even on which continent the Book of Mormon took place.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Kishkumen
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Re: A Divine Origin of the Columbia Chess Chronicle, 1888

Post by _Kishkumen »

Stem wrote:If so he [they] did a pretty damn good job making the adjustment on the fly and putting to print words called scripture. People to this day hang on it's very words and consider the whole more inspirational than anything else out there. And Joseph started a religion that flourishes. I don't mean to overstate either case, but the whole enterprise becomes all the more fascinating when you consider different possibilities and theories. If it did derive from what you describe or any other theory its pretty crazy to imagine people consider it all from god.


It probably took less of an adjustment than you might expect. Listen, Rosicrucianism and Freemasonry are comfortably within the stream of Christian to Deistic Christian thought. Renaissance Christians adopted Jewish Kabbalah and Christianized it. They even used it to try to convert Jews to Christianity (and sometimes succeeded). Rosicrucianism and Freemasonry are child and grandchild of these Renaissance efforts. It takes little effort to make the implicit Judaeo-Christian content of Masonry explicit. Similarly, it takes little effort to subdue the Masonic elements in your esoteric Masonic Bible in order to re-pitch it as new Christian scripture. There is a reason why Dan Vogel saw the Book of Mormon as anti-Masonic. It is because the allusions to Masonry are there but the negative allusions are more obvious (secret combinations). So too are references to magic, the search for the pure language, and alchemy. In other words, the Book of Mormon is clearly a frontier esoteric text that was executed in the cultural language of frontier Christianity and through the quest to identify the origins of America's aboriginal people as Israelites.

The reason the Book of Mormon worked so well was because, underneath its arguably inept execution, there is a hell of a lot of interesting stuff going on. Yes, it is true that it rips off the KJB in an obvious and ham-handed way, but it is also packed with very rich and finely interwoven use of biblical myths and themes.

I believe that the Book of Mormon should be taken seriously. I don't question its status as scripture for the various branches of the Smith Restoration. I do, however, hold its imperialist and colonial vision to be repugnant and ultimately unsalvageable. In order to explain that fully, it would take pages of discussion to unpack things. I can no longer defend the Book of Mormon's paternalistic and racist attempts to rewrite Native American history, however well intentioned they may have been. In fact, I apologize for having done so on this board. I didn't fully understand what it was I was doing, and now I deeply regret my arguments in defense of the Book of Mormon on the issue of racism.

I have always acknowledged that the Book of Mormon was racist. And I have always been opposed to the Book of Mormon's racism. But, in my scholarly interest to unpack its attempts to incorporate Native American ideas and myths, I erroneously tended to defend the Book of Mormon as not being maliciously racist so much as wrongheadedly racist in its vision of the possible future unity of Native Americans and Euro-Americans. In the end, however, this vision does not matter as much as the fact that it was a vision cooked up by Euro-Americans, or, in other words, unity on their terms with ultimately no room for the primacy of Native American culture on American soil. The Book of Mormon gives Hebrew-Christian origins to Native American myths. In this way it is even more insidiously racist. Native American culture is constructed as flawed, and redemption is only seen in even deeper Biblically-defined origins.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_Stem
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Re: A Divine Origin of the Columbia Chess Chronicle, 1888

Post by _Stem »

Fence Sitter wrote:Just a side note on the "How could Joseph Smith have known?" or Joseph Smith was not educated enough to have produced Mormonism? defenses.

Today's Mormonism is so far removed from what Joseph Smith taught and practiced that regardless of what Joseph Smith did or did not know, much of what he introduced is no longer relevant to the church.

So on the one hand we are asked how Joseph could've known about EMoD but on the other hand it is okay that he was entirely clueless about indigent native American populations or even on which continent the Book of Mormon took place.

To be clear I did not invoke the "How could Joseph Smith have known" Defense other than to defend why I find myself remaining intrigued with the whole of the relgion and the Book of Mormon in particular.
_Stem
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Re: A Divine Origin of the Columbia Chess Chronicle, 1888

Post by _Stem »

Kishkumen wrote:
It probably took less of an adjustment than you might expect. Listen, Rosicrucianism and Freemasonry are comfortably within the stream of Christian to Deistic Christian thought. Renaissance Christians adopted Jewish Kabbalah and Christianized it. They even used it to try to convert Jews to Christianity (and sometimes succeeded). Rosicrucianism and Freemasonry are child and grandchild of these Renaissance efforts. It takes little effort to make the implicit Judaeo-Christian content of Masonry explicit. Similarly, it takes little effort to subdue the Masonic elements in your esoteric Masonic Bible in order to re-pitch it as new Christian scripture. There is a reason why Dan Vogel saw the Book of Mormon as anti-Masonic. It is because the allusions to Masonry are there but the negative allusions are more obvious (secret combinations). So too are references to magic, the search for the pure language, and alchemy. In other words, the Book of Mormon is clearly a frontier esoteric text that was executed in the cultural language of frontier Christianity and through the quest to identify the origins of America's aboriginal people as Israelites.

The reason the Book of Mormon worked so well was because, underneath its arguably inept execution, there is a hell of a lot of interesting stuff going on. Yes, it is true that it rips off the KJB in an obvious and ham-handed way, but it is also packed with very rich and finely interwoven use of biblical myths and themes.

I believe that the Book of Mormon should be taken seriously. I don't question its status as scripture for the various branches of the Smith Restoration. I do, however, hold its imperialist and colonial vision to be repugnant and ultimately unsalvageable. In order to explain that fully, it would take pages of discussion to unpack things. I can no longer defend the Book of Mormon's paternalistic and racist attempts to rewrite Native American history, however well intentioned they may have been. In fact, I apologize for having done so on this board. I didn't fully understand what it was I was doing, and now I deeply regret my arguments in defense of the Book of Mormon on the issue of racism.

I have always acknowledged that the Book of Mormon was racist. And I have always been opposed to the Book of Mormon's racism. But, in my scholarly interest to unpack its attempts to incorporate Native American ideas and myths, I erroneously tended to defend the Book of Mormon as not being maliciously racist so much as wrongheadedly racist in its vision of the possible future unity of Native Americans and Euro-Americans. In the end, however, this vision does not matter as much as the fact that it was a vision cooked up by Euro-Americans, or, in other words, unity on their terms with ultimately no room for the primacy of Native American culture on American soil. The Book of Mormon gives Hebrew-Christian origins to Native American myths. In this way it is even more insidiously racist. Native American culture is constructed as flawed, and redemption is only seen in even deeper Biblically-defined origins.


Interesting thanks. I suppose my interjection was meant to suggest much of what you say and describe above. The Book and the religion have too much for me to just pass off as fraud and leave it at that. If that were the case I suppose I'd have left long ago and not spent so much of my free time reading about it and talking with others about it. Sometimes my defensive habits come back and I want to justify myself all over again.

I admit though, I have a little bit of an "What the F?" reaction to your theory though. It feels far too complicated, too many links between people and ideas that remains too theoretical to me. I want it to be nothing more than Joseph and a friend or two trying their darndest to come up with scripture due to their own genuine concern for humanity.
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