CaliforniaKid wrote:On the other hand, corporations themselves can be the real villains when they have systems and cultures that push people to engage in bad behavior. I would go so far as to say that the LDS Church has a "culture of lying," because every member is taught and pressured to say they "know the Church is true" regardless of the real state of their knowledge. It also calls people to teach and proselytize regardless of their actual willingness or preparedness. In effect, when general authorities whitewash the Church's history, they aren't doing anything that hasn't already been asked of them at every other level of Church participation on their way to apostolic office.
I agree with you, Celestial Kingdom. You have offered a very good summary of some of the issues I find very troubling. But it doesn't help me to be angry about it. It helps me not to attend church, pay tithing, or support the leaders of the LDS Church. I believe the LDS Church is on a bad path. So, I do not participate in it. That helps me deal with it in a healthier way.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
honorentheos wrote:Brilliant. Really a great insight into how ingrained the idea becomes that this type of dishonesty isn't just excuseable but desireable or even necessary to get to a place of understanding. From the youth being whispered to at a F&T meeting to the apostles at GC, this really shines a light on how ingrained this is into the culture. Thanks for sharing it.
I still struggle with this idea of "knowing." Is it really so simple? Can people feel they know something emotionally without knowing it factually? I agree that the fake it 'til you make it approach is bad. So too is the kiddiemony. Frankly, I don't understand testimonies at all. But I do allow for the sense of knowing that comes from spiritual conviction, and I don't think that is dishonest.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
consiglieri wrote:This is the non sequitur I feel lies at the heart of Brian Whitney's article:
While the church is, without question, paying the price for promoting an overly-simplified “heritage” approach to history, I don’t think the motive was based in intentional deception; rather, I think the disinclinations towards academic approaches to history were based in sincere love for the church and a desire to protect it.
I think there are some people who believe so deeply that they will make it look true in spite of the facts. There are paternalistic types who think it is so important to uphold institutions that "do good" that they will fight to protect the institutions from the flaws that damage their reputation. You and I may not be such people, but there are plenty of these types. I doubt they feel at all dishonest.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
Kishkumen wrote:I still struggle with this idea of "knowing." Is it really so simple? Can people feel they know something emotionally without knowing it factually? I agree that the fake it 'til you make it approach is bad. So too is the kiddiemony. Frankly, I don't understand testimonies at all. But I do allow for the sense of knowing that comes from spiritual conviction, and I don't think that is dishonest.
I think I agree with this, if at least in the sense that I am convinced "knowing" can take place in ways other than through executive brain function. One ought to accept this given that it's been shown cognitively reasoned explanations can take the form of confabulations to explain these subconscious forms of coming to a decision of some kind.
Besides, I like aesthetics too much to be purely rational. :)
ETA: I did gloss over the fact I think there is a world of difference between this idea and that a person ought to play-act at knowing something in the hopes of eventually experiencing something they could interprete as confirming it. Our non-conscious minds are amazing. Not so much our unfortunately need to fit in and thus practise self-dishonesty...at least in my opinion.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
Kishkumen wrote:I still struggle with this idea of "knowing." Is it really so simple? Can people feel they know something emotionally without knowing it factually? I agree that the fake it 'til you make it approach is bad. So too is the kiddiemony. Frankly, I don't understand testimonies at all. But I do allow for the sense of knowing that comes from spiritual conviction, and I don't think that is dishonest.
My vote for interesting insight OTD.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.
Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality. ~Bill Hamblin
I have no doubt that, in their eyes, they were not suppressors of truth as much as they were being the dutiful watchmen along the tower.
And this is noble or admirable in some way? To suppress truth in order to protect members from the terrible...horrible...dreadful...awful...vile...ghastly......facts?
Sammy Jankins wrote:You can contextualize and add nuance all day but the end result still stands. They intentionally told half truths and intentionally omitted information to sell their religion. How is that not a lie?
Totally agree. He should not be saying "Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church," but rather, "Ok, the Church lied, but there's a good reason - you can't handle the truth"
As an aside, wow, this guy has some talent - I'm not sure the last time I read such marvelous obfuscation. The TBMs will lap this up.
Maksutov wrote: To be fair, I bet there isn't any institution on Earth more than a couple of generations old that doesn't have some history they're not proud of. If you look just at the United States federal government since 1830, how many instances of deception can you find? Look through the NYT, Washington Post, WSJ in the last 50 years--any lying stories? Any hoaxes, fraudulent reporting? You betcha. Did they report on it themselves or did they have to be busted? Yeah, I thought so. .
Something funny happening on this board... I just edited something apparently not allowed. Commie pinko scum here.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
As soon as you concern yourself with the 'good' and 'bad' of your fellows, you create an opening in your heart for maliciousness to enter. Testing, competing with, and criticizing others weaken and defeat you. - O'Sensei
I really have a hard time registering the stupidity here.
As soon as you concern yourself with the 'good' and 'bad' of your fellows, you create an opening in your heart for maliciousness to enter. Testing, competing with, and criticizing others weaken and defeat you. - O'Sensei