Was J Smith martyred, murdered or removed from his place?

[_Madison54]

I doubt that. What got him in trouble was secretly marrying other men's wives and marrying young daughters.

Such behavior certainly disillusioned some of his followers. Rumors of polygamy were going around, Joseph Smith and the Church vigorously denied them, and the general population wasn't sure what to think. What got him into serious trouble in Nauvoo with the mob that killed him was his politics--not his spiritual winery.

There were enough rumors and details that had gotten out regarding what Joseph was doing, that what he thought was his "big secret" was not a secret anymore. I agree that there was a lot of other law breaking going on too that attributed to his death.

[_Jonah]

Murdered.

Although, I have always felt that the church could gain some milage by throwing Bro. Joe under the bus and saying he was removed. Since several prophets over the years have testified that God would remove them before they were allowed to lead the members astray, what a great opportunity to correct the “wrongs” of Bro. Joe while also claiming the fulfillment of prophesy!! Destroying a printing press, marrying 14 year olds, screwing other men’s wives…yeah…Bro. Joe started getting a little squirrely so God took him out. That would cure a lot of the church’s ills.

But then again…how would the church explain keeping Bro. Brigham around??

DOH!!

***Hehehehehe...whenever the missionaries drop by I do enjoy suggesting that perhaps God "removed" Bro. Joe because his behavior was leading members astray. It is fun to watch their heads explode a little.

[_Analytics]

There were enough rumors and details that had gotten out regarding what Joseph was doing, that what he thought was his "big secret" was not a secret anymore. I agree that there was a lot of other law breaking going on too that attributed to his death.

It must have been a secret to someone--otherwise why would William Law et. al. have bothered to blow the whistle in the Nauvoo Expositor, and why would have Joseph Smith tried to cover it up by destroying the paper?

In A History of Illinois, Thomas Ford lists out in detail the specific accusations that were being levied against Joseph Smith and the Mormons (polygamy gets one paragraph). He then says:

But the great cause of popular fury was, that the Mormons at several preceding elections, had cast their vote as a unit; thereby making the act apparent that no one could aspire to the honors or offices of the country within the sphere of their influence, without their approbation and votes. It appears to be one of the principles by which they insist upon being governed as a community, to act as a unit in all matters of government and religion. They express themselves to be fearful that if division should be encouraged in politics, it would soon extend to their religion, and rend their church with schism and into sects.

This seems to me to be an unfortunate view of the subject, and more unfortunate in practice, as I am well satisfied that it must be the fruitful source of excitement, violence, and mobocracy, whilst it is persisted in. It is indeed unfortunate for their peace that they do not divide into elections, according to their individual preferences or political principles, like other people.

This one principle and practice of theirs arrayed against them in deadly hostility all aspirants for office who were not sure of their support, all who have been unsuccessful in elections, and all who were too proud to court their influence, with all their friends and connections.

These also were the active men in blowing up the fury of the people, in hopes that a popular movement might be set on foot, which would result in the expulsion or extermination of the Mormon voters. For this purpose, public meetings had been called; inflammatory speeches had been made; exaggerated reports had been extensively circulated...

https://books.google.com/books?id=GAyA6 ... 22&f=false

[_Madison54]

There were enough rumors and details that had gotten out regarding what Joseph was doing, that what he thought was his "big secret" was not a secret anymore. I agree that there was a lot of other law breaking going on too that attributed to his death.

It must have been a secret to someone--otherwise why would William Law et. al. have bothered to blow the whistle in the Nauvoo Expositor, and why would have Joseph Smith tried to cover it up by destroying the paper?

Oh, I think he believed he was being secretive and careful enough that he'd deceived most everyone. But he was foolish to believe this. It wasn't spoken about openly (thus William Law couldn't be certain who knew and who didn't). But most all of the saints had at least already heard the rumors. If you spend much time reading what "outsiders" wrote (journals, letters, etc.) most of them knew what Joseph was up to or at least suspected. Joseph trusted some of the wrong people if he expected to keep all that he was doing a secret.

(John C. Bennett's revealing book was published in 1842 that contained much of what was going on too.)

[_Analytics]

It must have been a secret to someone--otherwise why would William Law et. al. have bothered to blow the whistle in the Nauvoo Expositor, and why would have Joseph Smith tried to cover it up by destroying the paper?

Oh, I think he believed he was being secretive and careful enough that he'd deceived most everyone. But he was foolish to believe this. It wasn't spoken about openly (thus William Law couldn't be certain who knew and who didn't). But most all of the saints had at least already heard the rumors. If you spend much time reading what "outsiders" wrote (journals, letters, etc.) most of them knew what Joseph was up to or at least suspected. Joseph trusted some of the wrong people if he expected to keep all that he was doing a secret.

(John C. Bennett's revealing book was published in 1842 that contained much of what was going on too.)

Yea, I think it was one of those things where the non-Mormons knew what was going on more than the rank and file members did, because they weren't naïve enough to take Smith at his word.

But still, if you look at the things that caused clear spikes in the anger of the population, they were all political. Weren't they?

I acknowledge that my view is strongly shaped by Thomas Ford, and that a politician sees things from the paradigm of politics. But he does paint a compelling picture of who was really orchestrating the fanning of the flames and why.

[_Madison54]

Oh, I think he believed he was being secretive and careful enough that he'd deceived most everyone. But he was foolish to believe this. It wasn't spoken about openly (thus William Law couldn't be certain who knew and who didn't). But most all of the saints had at least already heard the rumors. If you spend much time reading what "outsiders" wrote (journals, letters, etc.) most of them knew what Joseph was up to or at least suspected. Joseph trusted some of the wrong people if he expected to keep all that he was doing a secret.

(John C. Bennett's revealing book was published in 1842 that contained much of what was going on too.)

Yea, I think it was one of those things where the non-Mormons knew what was going on more than the rank and file members did, because they weren't naïve enough to take Smith at his word.

But still, if you look at the things that caused clear spikes in the anger of the population, they were all political. Weren't they?

Well, some were of course. But not "all", in my opinion. I agree that Joseph held political power in that he could sway elections in the state (using the obedience of his followers). I doubt he would have been murdered over that though (and his brother too). I believe it was more of the illegal things that were taking place against nonmembers along with the attempted murder on Boggs, etc....plus his womanizing. But of course, his political power was threatening to some too.

[_candygal]

Just my own opinion..but martyrs don't have guns and fire them.

[_grindael]

You have to look at this from the evidence. What really happened? Thomas Sharp stirred up a bunch of militia men to murder Smith. This was because of political disagreements. Sharp could care less about Smith's beliefs, only as he could use them against him. All of those who were believers, like the Laws, Higbees, Cowles, etc. were working to change things from within. JOSEPH expelled them. So then they were forced to work from the outside. They were not involved in the murder. Those that were, were goaded by those like Sharp, whose objections were political in nature. Law claimed he wanted to "tread on the viper", but never advocated violence. That is all Sharp was advocating at the last. Where did the evidence lead? Who was brought to trial?

An eyewitness to the murders, Jeremiah Willey, said that John Wills, Gallaher (a man whose first name has fallen out of the historical record), and William Voras were among the men that broke into the jail room. Willey reported that Gallaher shot Joseph Smith in the back as he ran to the window. Wills, Gallaher, and Voras all received wounds when they were shot through the cell door by Joseph Smith. In the end, just five of the nine indicted men would face trial: Levi Williams, Thomas Sharp, Mark Aldrich, Jacob Davis, and William Grover. http://famous-trials.com/carthrage/1262-home

In vain, the Mormons tried to link Church dissenters to the murders. They even tried to implicate Joseph H. Jackson, and all later Mormon historians have is hearsay to do so. There is no evidence linking any Church dissenters to the murders. All of it points to Sharp and those that he duped into going and committing the murders, which was because of political motivations.

Did religious matters get Joseph to Carthage? In part, YES. But was that the reasoning behind the murders? No. It was all about opportunity, and Joseph and others like Sharp, knew he would be vulnerable there. (To be convicted of something). But even Joseph did not think he was going to be murdered when he surrendered.

[_Madison54]

You have to look at this from the evidence. What really happened? Thomas Sharp stirred up a bunch of militia men to murder Smith. This was because of political disagreements. Sharp could care less about Smith's beliefs, only as he could use them against him. All of those who were believers, like the Laws, Higbees, Cowles, etc. were working to change things from within. JOSEPH expelled them. So then they were forced to work from the outside. They were not involved in the murder. Those that were, were goaded by those like Sharp, whose objections were political in nature. Law claimed he wanted to "tread on the viper", but never advocated violence. That is all Sharp was advocating at the last. Where did the evidence lead? Who was brought to trial?

An eyewitness to the murders, Jeremiah Willey, said that John Wills, Gallaher (a man whose first name has fallen out of the historical record), and William Voras were among the men that broke into the jail room. Willey reported that Gallaher shot Joseph Smith in the back as he ran to the window. Wills, Gallaher, and Voras all received wounds when they were shot through the cell door by Joseph Smith. In the end, just five of the nine indicted men would face trial: Levi Williams, Thomas Sharp, Mark Aldrich, Jacob Davis, and William Grover. http://famous-trials.com/carthrage/1262-home

Wow grindael....you always have the best and most interesting sources! I should go right to you for anything regarding church history

What is your opinion on Jackson's book / writings regarding Nauvoo happenings? I found it so shocking the first time I read it...

[_grindael]

What is your opinion on Jackson's book / writings regarding Nauvoo happenings? I found it so shocking the first time I read it...

Jackson was a provocateur. He went to Nauvoo to expose Smith after he had a bad experience there. He was certainly an interesting character and I'm writing a paper on him. Someday... I think he exaggerated some things, but overall, his story checks out. And he was NOT a murderer, as Smith accused him of being. Smith has way more credibility problems than Jackson does.