Falling out between Dehlin and Kate Kelly?

[_Rosebud]

And there's nothing wrong with figuring out how to put together a good business. Drawing a salary for therapy (although John isn't licensed and needs to stick to coaching (but I'm not sure he knows what coaching is and isn't)) and making money from retreats is fine.

What's wrong is doing it in the name of a nonprofit while siphoning money to the self, maintaining a loyal board through fear of expulsion and public ridicule, and knowingly taking advantage of the vulnerabilities transitioning Mormons come to him with that are related to the culture of the church they're escaping.That's wrong.

[_6EQUJ5]

Can you elaborate more on this? John hates polygamy just like most exmos.

Yes. He brought up the topics of polyamory and polygamy very carefully, tried to make them sound good and then implied he'd like me to become his polygamous wife. He wanted to convince his wife of the same. Pretty standard polygamy recruitment stuff. I shut him down quickly.

If you were to ask him about it today, he'd probably make the excuse that it was a "dark" time and there was a devil sitting on one of his shoulders or something like that. I don't know. It's common stuff Mormon and exMormon women have to deal with often. We're sealed eternally with the idea that our husbands will have plural wives after death. A lot of Mormon men want to make that happen during this life when they hit their midlife crises. The difference with John is that he's out playing public anti-polygamy and good husband hero.

Wow. That's a pretty damning claim. Have you made this statement in public before? Has John publicly responded?

I can't imagine that if this were widely known he'd still have such a following.

[_Rosebud]

Listen to his old "faith reconstruction" podcast. He prepares himself for it there.

The way he manages this situation is to "openly" talk to "friends" who privately ask him about the "mistakes" he's made in the past. He's responded plenty of times with plenty of b.s.

He will still have plenty of followers in transition because he makes himself sound so good and benign publicly and Mormons in crisis are looking for a new leader to help give them hope. They're willing to forgive the sins of a man they perceive to be humble and penitent. If they're good people and have ever been imperfect themselves, they'll project their own goodness onto John, and forgive him the way they'd like others to forgive them. Or, if they're more aggressive and are just out to get the church, they'll convince themselves it doesn't matter because at least John is actually holding the church accountable. His victims are therefore unimportant and expendable.

As for my case, John did everything he could conceive of doing to silence me in 2012 while he went to his SP and "repented" with a tape recorder in his pocket. After his "repentance" was complete, he made a move to befriend the apologists and shut down the "hit piece," but they weren't dumb enough to fall for his act.

Historians looking for more information can dig into the Comission for Human Rights in the State of New Hampshire. All files are private so making a request now will get nothing. That was the best way I knew to handle the situation. John held the power cards because I had no claim without a contract or at least six non-contract (or more highly/fairly) paid employees at the Open Stories Foundation.

He gets his work for pennies and then uses the fact that he only pays pennies to protect himself from consequences. I was never fairly compensated for my work or for the harm that came to me afterwards through his retaliations.

Then, my ex used JD as leverage against me and my children during my divorce (autism) while he went to his bishop for "help"... all at the same time JD was manipulating the public pretending he didn't want his excommunication (that he had actually been preparing himself for for a long time... so he could be a hero like the September Six... remember how he kept talking to the press about them?) and I had a route of communication over the top of local leaders' heads.

I told KK a little of what was going on... just a little, but I could tell she wasn't to be trusted and didn't care anyway. At the time she was only riding the JD publicity train so I kept my mouth shut. No sense in talking to someone who will only use your words against you. She knew what she wanted to hear in 2014/2015: that JD was a good man who has flaws like all of us, a man man deserving of pity and a wide space of acceptance because who among us has been perfect during our own crises? And JD, he had an "answer" for everything devised to keep him in line for his honorable public excommunication. He takes advantage of the "I was a good person going through a crisis, please forgive me," explanation. People who don't know him well and fall for that because they don't comprehend the full scope of his manipulations or because their careers or social lives are dependent on him.

And be careful, if you cross him and your careers or social life are in his hands, like mine were (as he had intended), he'll rip them away from you and leave you in the gutter. People have good reason to be afraid and to continue to treat him well even when he doesn't deserve it. Some with less self-awareness than others may protect him without being aware of the fact that they protect him because he's powerful and protecting someone who has power over you protects the self. Those who are discarded must find their own way.

No worries, this will come back to haunt him for many years to come. The bigger concern is who he is still manipulating now.

The Open Stories Foundation should have gotten rid of him in 2012. That wouldn't have changed much, but at least he'd probably be running his business from an LLC now instead of constantly enlisting volunteers to serve his "nonprofit" that siphons money like a for-profit business, directly against what the IRS intends for a 501(c)3.

Why do Dan and Natasha protect him so vehemently? I've always wondered. Dan is my cousin and hasn't spoken to me since 2012. His MM income is dependent on John's goodwill and he's a sucker for "I did something wrong please believe I'm repentant and a good person now" manipulations. Dan considers himself and all others flawed and forgives others their flaws. But he has never made an effort to reach out to me. Natasha seems to like to consider herself a sex therapy expert and all of this feeds her career. So, she can help John... and -you- too, if you'd like.

Me, I was pissed because I wanted the Open Stories Foundation to really do all of the things John was publicly claiming it would do and it was set in that direction when I worked there. It would be nice to see the board really stand up to him once and for all and rip the thing from his hands so it can serve transitioning Mormons instead of be John's constant drama house. He's like a dog that returns to his vomit and at some point the board should clean up the mess and send him on his way so incoming Mormons in new crises don't get hurt. If he sets up an LLC, he can still make his $$$, but won't be able to recruit so many volunteers looking for a new cult to serve in their crises. Seems a good solution to me.

But chances are the board is wrapped around his pinky finger and won't dare stand up to him out of fear of permanent community bannings and public statements he'll make against them like he does Money. And then he's the one with the passwords to the hosting account, etc.When things get really rough, he puts the whole organization on lockdown until people give up and go away and then he finds new followers to replace those who have gone before.

And there will always be more Mormons in crisis because transitions from one developmental stage to the next continue throughout the lifespan. Mormons will always be growing up and John is there to exploit them when they're moving from one stage of development, through their crisis transition, to a higher stage and out of his grasp.

Would be good to see someone try to protect future Mormons coming into crisis by getting rid of the leech who will exploit a few people while he moves the rest of the community happily through his system. But who among those who have figured him out have enough desire to try to protect his future victims to stand up to him when they'll just be banned, silenced or called out publicly? Not likely to happen. John has a racket on the airwaves with so many downloads of every episode. He can twist anything to his benefit because ultimately people care more about themselves and their own lives than the Open Stories Foundation. And isn't that how it should be? There will always be vultures among us ready to exploit the vulnerable.

Thumb is tired now. Time to put down my phone.

[_Lemmie]

I have seen LDS women wrestle with the principle of polygamy, they all seem to kind of go through that, but never have I heard of anybody being pressured to actually do it. They sort of excommunicate people for that now, ya know. Actually, in my experience, the men are the first to reject polygamy. Men are sick of this history and it places a huge burden on them. Women will wrestle with this issue at an emotional level, which creates a burden on men to reassure their wives and kind of atone for a thing they were never guilty of in the first place. I've come across a lot of ladies in the church who expressed being "cool" with polygamy and they'd be down. Never come across a single man that was interested, aside some locker room kind of polygamy jokes which weren't meant in a serious way. Guaranteed, if put to a vote, the men of the church would vote against polygamy faster than the women would..

While I appreciate the point you're making, and I really enjoy your posts, may I ask one small favor? It's interesting to hear your anecdotal evidences and experiences, but that's all they are, so could you stop there without overgeneralizing? It's getting pretty old to read over and over in your posts "how women are," and "how men are,' as though people can always be divided into two separate homogeneous groups on the basis of gender, on any point. I have yet to read in a post about "how women are" that matches me at all, so there's an anecdotal account that differs, if you're interested.

[_Tator]

I was out of the Morg long before podcasts, the internet and John Dehlin existed so they meant and mean nothing to me. My main observation is that drama seems to follow JD everywhere. Drama follows in every thread I have read dealing with anything JD. There are lots of emotions that run very deep and it shows up in every JD related thread I have ever tried to read.

JD equals lots and lots of drama and it seems everyone around him equals lots of drama, too.

[_Lemmie]

While I appreciate the point you're making, and I really enjoy your posts, may I ask one small favor? It's interesting to hear your anecdotal evidences and experiences, but that's all they are, so could you stop there without overgeneralizing? It's getting pretty old to read over and over in your posts "how women are," and "how men are,' as though people can always be divided into two separate homogeneous groups on the basis of gender, on any point. I have yet to read in a post about "how women are" that matches me at all, so there's an anecdotal account that differs, if you're interested.

Noted. So does that mean you were propositioned to become a poly wife by your LDS husband?

Thanks, appreciated. Re: your second sentence...Hah! Are you going to regret that assumption!

My LDS (ex- as far as I and the rest of the world are concerned, but by him assumed eternally valid) husband does consider me a polygamous (again according to the whole sane world, ex-, but again, by him still assumed eternal) wife!!!

Their bishop did the "propositioning," if you can call the intrusive LDS requirements that, but I hear wife number two, TBM to the core, is legitimately distressed by the long-term theological implications of such God-sanctioned bigamy.

[_Rosebud]

I was out of the Morg long before podcasts, the internet and John Dehlin existed so they meant and mean nothing to me. My main observation is that drama seems to follow JD everywhere. Drama follows in every thread I have read dealing with anything JD. There are lots of emotions that run very deep and it shows up in every JD related thread I have ever tried to read.

JD equals lots and lots of drama and it seems everyone around him equals lots of drama, too.

This. Too much drama. The best solution is getting away from Mormonism and any JD-related transition community.

If the new Open Stories Foundation board ever comes out with a response or if JD ever gets down here to answer to some of this and I don't respond, I would appreciate someone trying to get ahold of me. I am happier and healthier when I am away from all of this.

-----

And Water Dog, as far as not me not being sane, my response is: "have you ever met a truly sane human being?" I haven't. We're all a little crazy in our own ways. That's evolution and biology. And I definitely haven't met a sane human being who's coped with the kinds of things I've coped with. That said, those who know me best know my stability. I was the stabilizing force at the Open Stories Foundation when I was there. JD was the drama and there seems plenty of evidence that I speak accurately when I say this.

As for JD calling me crazy, he's definitely done that. And even tried to provide evidence of it to intimidate me into silence. He knows better, though. If I were truly "crazy," I would never have been this much of a threat. I could beat him with evidence if it ever came down to it. Just calling me "crazy" would be a cop out. He's better off continuing on than dealing with me and to be frank, I prefer it that way. He's too much work and drama.

--------

(I wonder what world people live in when they know little about Mormon and exMormon men talking polyandry. Only the true jerks bring up polygamy, though. It must be a nice world to live in if you don't have to cope with this stuff and men. I wish I lived in that world too.)

------

I do hope his new board, as long as they're coping with this and preparing a "statement" will seriously consider what Money's saying and the possibility of ejecting JD to an LLC where we can't do as much damage. That would help transitioning Mormons.

[_Equality]

This thread will not have run its course until Mayan Elephant and RockSlider start throwing down.

John Dehlin is the David Miscavige of Ex-Mormonism. This sounds like something out of a Scientology press release:

What we know for a fact is that Mormon Stories Podcast and the Open Stories Foundation (including Gina Colvin's A Thoughtful Faith Podcast, Dan Wotherspoon's Mormon Matters Podcast, Natasha Helfer Parker's Mormon Mental Health Podcast, and Margi Dehlin's Mormon Transitions podcast) are changing lives in positive ways - on a very large scale. And no one can convince or shame us otherwise. The daily emails are all the reinforcement and motivation we need. The downloads and views do not hurt - we are on track for over 6,000,000 MP3 downloads and Youtube/Facebook views for 2017. Our workshops and retreats (thus far) have been full, and the feedback has been astoundingly positive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZTLJvsmaR4

[_Fifth Columnist]

Hey Rosebud, rumor has it that JD had an affair with you and that the reason JD met with his SP for so long was to repent of it. Any truth to that?

[_Rosebud]

Hey Rosebud, rumor has it that JD had an affair with you and that the reason JD met with his SP for so long was to repent of it. Any truth to that?

Good thing I checked back. No more questions after this, please. It's not that I don't want to answer, it's that I do want to remove drama from my life because I have other things to focus on right now. My objective is to protect future victims and fight silence of women in the exMo community. This stuff is rampant. JD's involvement in it is the Open Stories Foundation board's problem, now. Not mine.

Answer:

Yes and no.

Legally speaking, we did not have an affair because, legally, an affair must include sexual intercourse. We were not as chaste as 13-yos at their first junior high school dance.

We did have what I would call an "emotional affair" that I now understand was very predatory. At the time I did not yet comprehend the ways JD was manipulating me or intentionally using my vulnerabilities against me. At the time I knew I was in danger because of his temper, public position and the many public lies he told, but I did not have a full comprehension of the level of revenge, irrationality and anger to which he could rise. (You can find a small taste of it archived on this board in the thread in which he calls me "histrionic.")

At the time, I believed many of the lies he told me because, at least to some extent, I still believed in parts of public presentation he all puts forward for you. I did not believe as many of his lies as those who weren't listening to his strategizing behind the curtain, but I still hadn't completely cottoned on. His manipulations are both sophisticated and obvious. Once you see them, they're hard to un-see, but before one is aware of them, one wants to believe in him. He has an air or charisma that offers hope of something better and he intentionally uses that to his benefit in order to gain followers.

At the time I was not safe because I understood, to some extent (although not a full extent), what kind of person JD is and was, and what he might do to me because of his guilt. This lack of safety influenced some of my decisions -- especially at times he was treating me the most poorly. It affected my ability to escape the situation. In the end, there was no safe escape for me or for the people who had trusted JD to represent their needs to the church. He saved his own neck no matter how many other people he hurt. I honestly think he would have preferred me dead. This is not an exaggeration. I do not now, looking back, believe I had full power to consent to all that occurred. I was in great danger. That does not also mean that he is as guilty as he could be. Consent is not always a black and white thing.

I felt a lot of guilt at the time. I believed it was a terrible affair. I was wrong, both legally and in my perception of what happened. I no longer feel guilty or believe bad things about myself or what occurred between us. I now have compassion for the vulnerable me who was greatly taken advantage of. More than anything, getting away from my ex-husband and experiencing real sex for the first time helped. That happened when I was 40 and definitely changed my perspective on what had occurred between JD and myself.

JD has his own sexual problems that are not my business to discuss here. Now that I understand sex and relationships I am more aware of JD's problems than I was before.

Legally speaking, there was a major power difference between myself and JD: media access, followers, money, influence, passwords, board access, "public figure" status, etc.

Legally speaking, I lost my job. JD didn't. There are lots of ways people might try to parse that, but I'll let it go for now. I put up a fight for the Open Stories Foundation and CTW and managed to save a few things before I exited.

Legally speaking, small businesses can get away with a lot because the government protects them. They get away with more in Utah than New Hampshire. Have an attorney sort it out for you, but it is directly related to Money's concerns about number of employees and how much they get paid. Fewer and more poorly paid employees = more legal leverage for JD... and he uses/used it. I'm leaving the docs where they are because what is important to me is not drama, but protecting other women in crisis who come to the Open Stories Foundation with good intentions. I'm concerned about other vulnerable women who step into the transitioning Mormon communities hoping to "help" people. That was me when JD started this. He was the instigator. Repetitively. It was not me.

_______

As for the SP, the answer is no. JD was talking to his SP on a weekly basis for a long time before any of the "drama," as I would put it, began. JD did so because the SP asked him to because of JD's influence over the MS communities and because JD wanted to catch the SP on the record saying things that would incriminate the church. It was part of his plan all along. Keep in mind, too, that JD is a wishy washy guy: in one place one day and another the next. It's not helpful to confuse wishy-washy with well-meaning and innocent.

Does he have some moments that are more positive than others? Definitely. Do those more positive moments erase the reality of his strategic maneuvering? Definitely not.

JD is dishonest about details in the "faith reconstruction" podcast because he was creating a narrative to promote his false repentance (should he be called to the carpet by myself or someone in my family in the future) and to help prepare him for his honorable excommunication, finally achieved two years later.

_______

Alright. Not my drama anymore please.