Hey guys, thanks for all the comments.
I'm not sure the Mormon commandment to pay tithing has any bearing on whether someone's (Dehlin's in this case) activity can be said to be manipulation or not. I also don't see how the Church's truth claims being shown to be demonstrably wrong, gets Dehlin out of this mess either. Also I'm agreeing with Dehlin that the teaching as presented by the Stake leader was bad. Those points, though worth talking about on their own, seem to be nothing more than red herrings concerning the points I've raised.
I'm also agreeing the church and it's leaders are prone to employing manipulation tactics. My point is nothing more than calling out Dehlin for activity that faithful members can rightly, in my view, show is manipulation--at least as he has implied in the way he's using the relevant terms. It doesn't feel like anyone's tried to address that concern, but instead have introduced reasons why the Church is worse. I mean, ok. If we want to give Dehlin a pass because the Church can be worse, fine if that suits you. Admittedly it doesn't suit me.
Dehlin's video response feels like a slimey play, particularly if I attempt to see it from a believer's perspective. But, I'd also point out, one doesn't even have to try and see it from a believers perspective to see the problems in his video. It's pretty obvious to me. I'm surprised people would want to defend it. I don't think Dehlin or anyone should be free from criticism. It feels a little silly to get defensive if someone points out Dehlin uses people's loss of faith to turn a profit. I'm not saying he's bad for that. As I see it, that's just the facts. Is he not using the misfortune, as we often see it or how he paints it, of loss of faith to enrich himself? I soured as soon as he turned this criticism into talking at the kids of the Church, as if he's trying to usurp church influence in their lives. That was weird, particularly as he contradicted himself. It comes off as nothing more than the very type of manipulation he's complaining about.
But again, sure. I agree. The Church is not good. I really don't believe in it at all. I don't endorse the tactics it often employs in manipulating its adherents. I will not deny that the Church does some good or can do some good, in whatever way we can imagine. I also don't deny that Dehlin does some good or can do some good. None of that excuses bad behavior in my view, particularly oddly manipulative or hypocritical behavior. And yes, we can all be manipulative or hypocritical at times. It's really hard not to be.
Mormon leaders have to stop this
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Re: Mormon leaders have to stop this
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Re: Mormon leaders have to stop this
Isn't that church leader describing Satan's plan? I mean traditionally the difference between Jesus' and Satan's plan was whether or not we have agency to choose for ourselves.
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Re: Mormon leaders have to stop this
This one screams cult like big time. Of course Bednar says we really don't have a choice as well.Rivendale wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:33 amI normally avoid this drama but I have grandkids this age. https://out.reddit.com/t3_vt5q7y?url=ht ... reddit.com
Apparently I broke a rule and will edit this to fix the post. What I found unacceptable? This Mormon ecclesiastical leader was using baptism as a contract. A contract that a child cannot consent to especially at the age of 8. The leader was absolutely clear that all worthy males are obligated to go on an LDS mission. As it stands in Mormon communities, especially in Utah, there is a tremendous cultural pressure for kids to go and alienates those who don't. Kids should not feel any obligation to be coerced into church duty based on something they did at age 8.
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Re: Mormon leaders have to stop this
I thought Dehiln's comments were quite fine as wellChap wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 4:45 pmMe too.
I mean, saying to a young person "Don't let anybody tell you that they know what's best for you in your life" can hardly be said to be dictating to them.
It's pointing out to them that ultimately they have the right to decide that for themselves - even if they ultimately come to the conclusion that the best thing for them to do is to enter the noviciate of an enclosed contemplative religious order, it's up to them to make that decision, not up to some old guy to tell them that <name of some deity> has revealed to him that this is what the young person should do.
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Re: Mormon leaders have to stop this
I think you are nitpicking. Saying your main job in life is to figure out what it right for you given his previous comments fits in quite well. I always appreciated that when I was 19 my parents said they would support me whether or not I wanted to go on a mission, keep working as a welder, go to college or whatever. But they really wanted me to go to college. I ended up on a mission.dastardly stem wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 5:01 pm
I don't mean to hone in on John as being the bad guy, but the criticisms have some merit to it, it seems. He is profitting off of people's misfortune. I don't think we can deny that. And every time he gets like this, as seen in this video, it raises suspicion that the moves are very strategic. This is just a mess, if you ask me.
I don't know for instance how one goes from saying: "Don't let anybody tell you that they know what's best for you in your life." after having just said: "Your main job in life right now, is to work hard to figure out what is healthiest for you and what you want in your life."
So don't let anyone tell you what's best for you, right after saying what's best for them? I think that's odd. Of course kids should take advice from people, particularly trusted people, about what they should do and what they think is best for them. He's being overly dramatic and it only comes off as manipulation to believers, I'd think.
It's just a fact we are limited in choices, but John gets imprecise and overly dramatic. It's simply, often, a wise practice for parents to tell kids what they should do. It is silly for John to try and speak to kids of the Church with the message of "Do not accept Church teaching which tell you what to do" then turn around offering them fatherly counsel which includes telling them what they should do. We have all have ideas what we think kids should do. And that's not necessarily bad. What's bad in the teaching from the leader is obvious. Point that out, please. Make that the point--not your advice to the youth of the Church. It's as if he's trying to set up his future audience so he can continue to collect their money.
This has nothing to do with whether I agree with him or not. Or whether the Church teaching here is problematic or not. The problem is, believers see this, and rightly, see in it the very type of manipulation he complains about. And frankly many believers would probably agree with him on the message from this leader. If he played the clip and said, "this is terrible. Kids shouldn't feel guilty if they choose not to go on a mission, and of course, without a doubt, it's a choice...for them...and no one else." It'd be about 10X better. Instead he seems to be trying to do more with it.
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Re: Mormon leaders have to stop this
Manipulative tactics hardly seem that bad when they are coming from your side. Even though many members might have a problem with this Stake leaders teachings, they'd probably also be confused why John uses this to paint the church as a whole as manipulative, particularly when his comments come off as manipulation and not much more to them. People who get upset by manipulation tend to only get upset when the manipulation is coming from those whom they oppose. When their friends do it, they don't see much harm at all, and feel any complaints are nitpicking--as many members would see Dehlin as doing.Jason Bourne wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 9:38 pm
I think you are nitpicking. Saying your main job in life is to figure out what it right for you given his previous comments fits in quite well. I always appreciated that when I was 19 my parents said they would support me whether or not I wanted to go on a mission, keep working as a welder, go to college or whatever. But they really wanted me to go to college. I ended up on a mission.
I bring it up because I find it interesting how far emotional pleas carry us. I'm not interested in going back to reviewing it again, so I may be making more of it then it is. I don't think so though as memory has it. Telling kids they always have a choice, when clearly they don't is kind of silly. Talking to kids as if their parents are misleading them, is at least kind of problematic considering his level of misleading. Telling kids to never listen to anyone who is offering commands, then he himself offers commands? Meh...it's pretty weak to me. The Church simply thinks that missions are commanded by God. That's nothing new. And although I reject Church teaching, and find this leader's teachings on the matter deplorable, myself, I also don't think that justifies tactics that seem just as manipulative. Feels slimy at the very least, considering his move to make money off of people's misfortune. All the same elements of manipulation are there that he complains about. But as I've said, I can agree with his advice about being cautious in listening to people. He maybe should have left it there, after calling out this leaders terrible teaching.
The Church is terribly manipulative because it really thinks it has the means to save humanity. Dehlin is not when he does the same things? I can't really get on board with such things. Admittedly its quite annoying to me. I can't help but call it out.
I can appreciate that folks here disagree though.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
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Re: Mormon leaders have to stop this
Stem - it is clear that the position you have repeatedly enunciated has left most readers of this board unconvinced. May I suggest that (unless you have a lot of time to waste) you might consider using your energies on something else?
Of course that is only a suggestion. I am not dictating to you ...
Of course that is only a suggestion. I am not dictating to you ...
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
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Re: Mormon leaders have to stop this
Nobody convinced me, why are they still trying?Chap wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:58 pmStem - it is clear that the position you have repeatedly enunciated has left most readers of this board unconvinced. May I suggest that (unless you have a lot of time to waste) you might consider using your energies on something else?
Of course that is only a suggestion. I am not dictating to you ...
hah...it's what I do. When it seems like people aren't hearing what i'm saying, I tend to repeat it, over and over. It's my great failure in life. But it also makes me wonder what it is we're really disagreeing about. I can't tell what the disagreement is as I see these disagreeable posts coming. Every one agrees, but they think I'm just being nitpicky? Or it's not that big of deal if Dehlin does it because he's on our side?
Meh...I'm willing to drop it. It was a weird and annoying video response that is very typical of Dehlin. I guess it's clear I'm not a fan of his tactics and since he's such a loud voice in the world of ex-Mormonism it feels worth talking about.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos