Mormons ignoring Jesus as quoted in the gospel of Matthew

[drumdude]

If there is eternal progression between kingdoms, then there is no real dire penalty for making it into the lower kingdoms.

You just miss out on a head start, which because eternity is eternal, doesn't really matter all that much.

Unfortunately you don’t know that. Especially in regards to whether rejection of the gospel in this life plays a part.

Regards,
MG

Mormon leaders don't seem to know either. Like I said, they've chosen to remain silent on this. Which is one of the single most important doctrinal issues I can imagine.

Why can't they just declare it one way or the other, like McConkie did in the non-official Mormon Doctrine?

[drumdude]

You don't think anyone on Earth has improved their lives through reading Jesus' words? That would be an incredible feat. People's lives have been improved reading Harry Potter, for heaven's sake.

It's such a strong position to say he didn't say a single useful thing. Why?

All signs point to we have zero words from Jesus--and if he lived he didn't have much useful to say because his words didn't carry on beyond his life. That doens't mean the character that was created and teh religion that followed wasn't influential.

Who do you believe created the Jesus character? A single person or a group of Jews? Rabbis?

Someone simply compiling a lot of eastern philosophy and piling it on to the name of an obscure recently crucified Jew named Jesus?

[dastardly stem]

All signs point to we have zero words from Jesus--and if he lived he didn't have much useful to say because his words didn't carry on beyond his life. That doens't mean the character that was created and teh religion that followed wasn't influential.

Who do you believe created the Jesus character? A single person or a group of Jews? Rabbis?

Apparently a number of people were involved. One reads Mark, for instance, and compares it to matthew. Matthew copied some 90% of Mark, mixed it up enough to make it seem like he had a point, but changed some things, added a few things--hopeed to make Jesus sound more magical...stuff like that. Apparently whoever wrote Mark had used ideas from Paul's letters in helping form the character he hoped to help shape. Who knows what else really? Its quite obvious many themes that the gospels cover were ideas pulled in from various sources, either consciously or not.

[MG 2.0]

Unfortunately you don’t know that. Especially in regards to whether rejection of the gospel in this life plays a part.

Regards,
MG

Mormon leaders don't seem to know either. Like I said, they've chosen to remain silent on this. Which is one of the single most important doctrinal issues I can imagine.

Why can't they just declare it one way or the other, like McConkie did in the non-official Mormon Doctrine?

I would guess that you think that they have ulterior motives.

Yes?

There is the other option. They don’t know. Although personally I think they may have an inkling of insight to the answer of your concern/question.

I’d like a more fully fleshed out answer to your question/concern also.

But until the answer is fleshed out we have the plan of salvation/exaltation before us to either subscribe to and follow or not.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

Mormon leaders don't seem to know either. Like I said, they've chosen to remain silent on this. Which is one of the single most important doctrinal issues I can imagine.

Why can't they just declare it one way or the other, like McConkie did in the non-official Mormon Doctrine?

I would guess that you think that they have ulterior motives.

Yes?

There is the other option. They don’t know. Although personally I think they may have an inkling of insight to the answer of your concern/question.

I’d like a more fully fleshed out answer to your question/concern also.

But until the answer is fleshed out we have the plan of salvation/exaltation before us to either subscribe to and follow or not.

Regards,
MG

I think they don't know too. All they can do is pray about it and try to interpret their thoughts and feelings, the same as the rest of us. They really don't seem to have any special access to any more answers or revelation than we do.

[¥akaSteelhead]

When the Lord spoke to Jeremiah He told him to go down to the potter's house, and there he would cause him to hear His words. When he went down to the potter's house, "Behold, he wrought a work on the wheels." The potter tried to bring a lump of clay in subjection, and he worked and tugged at it, but the clay was rebellious, and would not submit to the will of the potter, and marred in his hands. Then, of course, he had to cut it from the wheel and throw it into the mill to be ground over, in order that it might become passive; after which he takes it again and makes of it a vessel unto honor, out of the same lump that was dishonored, because it would not be subject to the potter, and was, therefore, cut from the wheel, and put through another grinding until it was passive. There may ten thousand millions of men go to hell, because they dishonor themselves and will not be subject, and after that they will be taken and made vessels unto honor, if they will become obedient, and God will make us, who are His servants, bring about His purposes. Can you find any fault with that?

The Lord said to Jeremiah, "O, house of Israel, cannot I do with you as the potter? Behold as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand." They dishonored themselves and were rebellious, and I have cut them off and thrown them in the mill, and they shall grind until they are passive. And I have taken a gentler lump, to see if I cannot make a vessel unto honor. By and by that lump will dishonor itself, and be thrown back into the mill, and God will take Israel and make of them a vessel unto honor.

A Discourse, by President H. C. Kimball, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, February 25, 1855.

[drumdude]

If one point is ahead of another on a train’s wheel, then both points will advance along the track, but the point which started behind the other point will never catch up to its predecessor. t is said that those of the Terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by those of the Celestial; and those of the Telestial will be ministered unto by those of the Terrestrial–that is, those of the higher glory minister to those of a lesser glory. I can conceive of no reason for all this administration of the higher to the lower, unless it be for the purpose of advancing our Father’s children along the lines of eternal progression. Whether or not in the great future, full of so many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories after education and advancement within those spheres may at last emerge from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the revelations of God, and any statement made on the subject must partake more or less of the nature of conjecture. But if it be granted that such a thing is possible, they who at the first entered into the Celestial glory–having before them the privilege also of eternal progress–have been moving onward, so that the relative distance between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser glories may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of Celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at the commencement. Thus: Those whose faith and works are such only as to enable them to inherit a Telestial glory, may arrive at last where those whose works in this life were such as to enable them to entrance into the Celestial kingdom. They may arrive where these were, but never where they are.” B. H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God 1:391-392.

Mormonism, having it both ways since 1830.

[MG 2.0]

When the Lord spoke to Jeremiah He told him to go down to the potter's house, and there he would cause him to hear His words. When he went down to the potter's house, "Behold, he wrought a work on the wheels." The potter tried to bring a lump of clay in subjection, and he worked and tugged at it, but the clay was rebellious, and would not submit to the will of the potter, and marred in his hands. Then, of course, he had to cut it from the wheel and throw it into the mill to be ground over, in order that it might become passive; after which he takes it again and makes of it a vessel unto honor, out of the same lump that was dishonored, because it would not be subject to the potter, and was, therefore, cut from the wheel, and put through another grinding until it was passive. There may ten thousand millions of men go to hell, because they dishonor themselves and will not be subject, and after that they will be taken and made vessels unto honor, if they will become obedient, and God will make us, who are His servants, bring about His purposes. Can you find any fault with that?

The Lord said to Jeremiah, "O, house of Israel, cannot I do with you as the potter? Behold as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand." They dishonored themselves and were rebellious, and I have cut them off and thrown them in the mill, and they shall grind until they are passive. And I have taken a gentler lump, to see if I cannot make a vessel unto honor. By and by that lump will dishonor itself, and be thrown back into the mill, and God will take Israel and make of them a vessel unto honor.

A Discourse, by President H. C. Kimball, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, February 25, 1855.

Are you willing to knowingly take this hoped for course of being saved/exalted with the knowledge that you have now?

If so, that is between you and your maker.

The question I would put to you is why would you wait? And the second question is do YOU think that knowing what you know would not play any part in how the Lord might view your progressive ambitions in another sphere/world?

Again, that would be between you and God.

I’m not your judge.

Regards,
MG

[¥akaSteelhead]

Are you willing to knowingly take this hoped for course of being saved/exalted with the knowledge that you have now?

I have no expectation of salvation nor exaltation. Dead is dead.

The question I would put to you is why would you wait? And the second question is do YOU think that knowing what you know would not play any part in how the Lord might view your progressive ambitions in another sphere/world?

Again, that would be between you and God.

I’m not your judge.

Regards,
MG

The 'lord' doesn't know jack, as none such has ever been demonstrated to exist.


The quote was provide to demonstrate that Mormonism has at times taught some pathway for progression between kingdoms.

[sock puppet]

You want me to take the word of the same guy that in his pre earthly sojourn, while Jehovah of the Old Testament was quite all right with slavery, rape and infanticide? And for whose gospel "quotes" we have 0 contemporary sources of him having actually said anything at all?

Hard pass.

Different time. Ancient world. Corrupted records/accounts/agendas/histories/biases and prejudices.

Don’t go whole hog judging Jesus on the Old Testament and those that drafted and compiled it.

Regards,
MG

Are you saying Mormon God suffers from situational ethics?