If our brains are just a set determined cause and effect stream how is it that people think of, invent, new things?
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Why are cats clever when hunting, or why does a dog learn new tricks? How can a fish bait a bird in order to to catch and eat it? Speciation and environment can result in all sorts of weird changes to an organism. Why should creativity only belong to the realm of spirituality? A.I.’s are a good example of creativity arising from programming and input. A.I.’s are deterministic, but respond to information inputs resulting in a wide variety of art and text.
If a person had freewill what would it be that would cause them to choose differently than all the causes in time that people see as preventing free will. If freewill is a choice completely uncaused would it not then be random. I imagine living my life by random decisions would be the least free life I can imagine.
That is like saying why do different landscapes appear on a planet? Shouldn't everything look the same?
If our brains are just a set determined cause and effect stream how is it that people think of, invent, new things?
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Why are cats clever when hunting, or why does a dog learn new tricks? How can a fish bait a bird in order to to catch and eat it? Speciation and environment can result in all sorts of weird changes to an organism. Why should creativity only belong to the realm of spirituality? A.I.’s are a good example of creativity arising from programming and input. A.I.’s are deterministic, but respond to information inputs resulting in a wide variety of art and text.
- Doc
Doc, I think dog and cat thinking is basically the same sort of process as human thinking but human invention far exceeds their invention creation. I imagine the combination of environment and desire are fundamental to creative thought. The process of combining sight sensations, sound, smell,and touch into an actual understanding of whats going on around us is creative on a high level and is done by dogs, cats and even fish. Human babies spend a good deal of time learning how to do this.Desire can be seen as motivating invention.I am hungry how am I to get food? Humans have way of developing much more elaborate desires. (how can I make this car go faster? fly?)
She does a much better job of explaining my position than I did when I said:
He’s a series of situational, biological, and environmental factors that lead to the present and give the illusion of a future filled with choice.
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Or you have the illusion of having made that choice. Like, you can think that you chose to write that above, but there were a million neurochemical processes that kicked in prior to you hitting enter on your keyboard. Each one was an auto response to some mandate that came before it, all of it being kicked off by the stimulus of having read words that were input into your visual system.
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how do I know it wasn’t a series of cascading signals sent by my body
What concrete scenario would be possible if you had free will, but would be impossible if you were a material being in a deterministic universe?
Would you mind framing this question in an example? It seems like it could be an interesting thought advancing a salient point, but I might be a little too dense to follow it on its own merit.
Why are cats clever when hunting, or why does a dog learn new tricks? How can a fish bait a bird in order to to catch and eat it? Speciation and environment can result in all sorts of weird changes to an organism. Why should creativity only belong to the realm of spirituality? A.I.’s are a good example of creativity arising from programming and input. A.I.’s are deterministic, but respond to information inputs resulting in a wide variety of art and text.
- Doc
Doc, I think dog and cat thinking is basically the same sort of process as human thinking but human invention far exceeds their invention creation. I imagine the combination of environment and desire are fundamental to creative thought. The process of combining sight sensations, sound, smell,and touch into an actual understanding of whats going on around us is creative on a high level and is done by dogs, cats and even fish. Human babies spend a good deal of time learning how to do this.Desire can be seen as motivating invention.I am hungry how am I to get food? Humans have way of developing much more elaborate desires. (how can I make this car go faster? fly?)
I think you should watch the linked video, it might be helpful to understand the determinist pov.
If a person had freewill what would it be that would cause them to choose differently than all the causes in time that people see as preventing free will. If freewill is a choice completely uncaused would it not then be random. I imagine living my life by random decisions would be the least free life I can imagine.
That is like saying why do different landscapes appear on a planet? Shouldn't everything look the same?
Rivendale, are you saying that if things were all random then everyplace on the planet would look the same. Ok I can see that, it would be very dull.
She does a much better job of explaining my position than I did when I said:
He’s a series of situational, biological, and environmental factors that lead to the present and give the illusion of a future filled with choice.
…
Or you have the illusion of having made that choice. Like, you can think that you chose to write that above, but there were a million neurochemical processes that kicked in prior to you hitting enter on your keyboard. Each one was an auto response to some mandate that came before it, all of it being kicked off by the stimulus of having read words that were input into your visual system.
…
how do I know it wasn’t a series of cascading signals sent by my body
I recommend anti-determinists watch the video.
- Doc
Doc I watched the video, I am enough of a determinist (generally agree with what Physics Guy has posted) that I skipped some of the video as too familiar. I think a very good and important point was made that recognizing determinism in peoples actions asks us to be more understanding and helpful towards other. When they (or ourselves) make a bad choice it is not just freewill being bad it is whole net of understandings and hopes that needs recognition to change.
What concrete scenario would be possible if you had free will, but would be impossible if you were a material being in a deterministic universe?
What inputs to a decision would originate purely from the human mind independent of the configuration of neural pathways as they exist and stimuli of that network at the moment of decision? What is actual will if it is not the word we use for describing the behavior of an individual whose encoded past in the form of neural network and the immediate stimuli they are experiencing interact to result in the outcome that particular combination at that time presents?
