Mitt Romney said No to an Apostle

[Kishkumen]

My guess is that he would say something along the line that he follows Christ.

If that is true then he would not necessarily be obligated to support and/or believe everything that comes out of the mouth of church leaders, past and present, while at same time supporting them in their callings as prophets, seers, and revelators.

I can’t speak for him, but this would be reflective of a thinking member of the church who has their eyes wide open. And I think he does, having I’m sure, having had many long conversations with his brother.

Regards,
MG

I know this all makes sense to you, MG. That’s cool. It doesn’t work for me. In my view, people are able to follow Jesus without following the teachings, instructions, and commandments of LDS leaders. I know you see yourself as having freedom not to be blindly obedient to church leaders, and I can appreciate that, so let me put it another way: I refuse to be in a church that treats the Proclamation to the World on the Family as doctrine.

[Philo Sofee]

My guess is that he would say something along the line that he follows Christ.

If that is true then he would not necessarily be obligated to support and/or believe everything that comes out of the mouth of church leaders, past and present, while at same time supporting them in their callings as prophets, seers, and revelators.

I can’t speak for him, but this would be reflective of a thinking member of the church who has their eyes wide open. And I think he does, having I’m sure, having had many long conversations with his brother.

Regards,
MG

I know this all makes sense to you, MG. That’s cool. It doesn’t work for me. In my view, people are able to follow Jesus without following the teachings, instructions, and commandments of LDS leaders. I know you see yourself as having freedom not to be blindly obedient to church leaders, and I can appreciate that, so let me put it another way: I refuse to be in a church that treats the Proclamation to the World on the Family as doctrine.

And as a follow up I refuse to believe in a church that constantly chooses with its free agency, to lie about what it does and teach in order to convince people they are a restoration of truth. Lying to get people to believe a putative truth doesn't work for me.

[Doctor Scratch]

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... ontext=msr

Wow, I had no idea Peterson has been posting like that for this many years. He really does pay an incredible amount of attention to people who post here.

He’s actually referring to the Recovery from Mormonism board in that article—I.e., exMormon.org. But the fact that his commentary is basically indistinguishable is pretty telling. His attitudes towards secular criticism don’t seem to have evolved one iota.

[Kishkumen]

And as a follow up I refuse to believe in a church that constantly chooses with its free agency, to lie about what it does and teach in order to convince people they are a restoration of truth. Lying to get people to believe a putative truth doesn't work for me.

Excellent point, Philo, and I agree. I prefer transparency and faithfulness to the facts. I also don’t agree with a religious organization lying to federal authorities about its finances. They benefit from the privilege of tax exempt status. At the very least we should be able to rely on them to follow the full system of rules they benefit from. Finally, placing authority over the welfare of kids is a deal-breaker. Full stop.

[Marcus]

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... ontext=msr

Wow, I had no idea Peterson has been posting like that for this many years. He really does pay an incredible amount of attention to people who post here.

He’s actually referring to the Recovery from Mormonism board in that article—I.e., exMormon.org. But the fact that his commentary is basically indistinguishable is pretty telling. His attitudes towards secular criticism don’t seem to have evolved one iota.

Thanks for the correction. And wow. He has uniformly hated those he considers 'other' for a very long time, hasn't he? Where would he be without an enemy to despise?

[Boomer57]

He’s actually referring to the Recovery from Mormonism board in that article—I.e., exMormon.org. But the fact that his commentary is basically indistinguishable is pretty telling. His attitudes towards secular criticism don’t seem to have evolved one iota.

Thanks for the correction. And wow. He has uniformly hated those he considers 'other' for a very long time, hasn't he? Where would he be without an enemy to despise?

He would be spending a lot more time on his Tapir ranch!

[MG 2.0]

And as a follow up I refuse to believe in a church that constantly chooses with its free agency, to lie about what it does and teach in order to convince people they are a restoration of truth. Lying to get people to believe a putative truth doesn't work for me.

Excellent point, Philo, and I agree. I prefer transparency and faithfulness to the facts. I also don’t agree with a religious organization lying to federal authorities about its finances. They benefit from the privilege of tax exempt status. At the very least we should be able to rely on them to follow the full system of rules they benefit from. Finally, placing authority over the welfare of kids is a deal-breaker. Full stop.

From the time of the beginnings of the restoration the leaders of the church have never made claims to be perfect in all things.

Joseph Smith:
As I grow older, my heart grows tenderer for you. I am at all times willing to give up everything that is wrong, for I wish this people to have a virtuous leader. I have set your minds at liberty by letting you know the things of Christ Jesus. … I have nothing in my heart but good feelings.”

Joseph along with the rest of the church and its leaders were taught correct principles from on high and then left to govern themselves.

John Taylor, the third President of the Church, reported: “Some years ago, in Nauvoo, a gentleman in my hearing, a member of the Legislature, asked Joseph Smith how it was that he was enabled to govern so many people, and to preserve such perfect order; remarking at the same time that it was impossible for them to do it anywhere else. Mr. Smith remarked that it was very easy to do that. ‘How?’ responded the gentleman; ‘to us it is very difficult.’ Mr. Smith replied, ‘I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.’”

The leadership body of the church has never been about power and dominion.

In response to an accusation that he was seeking power, Joseph Smith said: “In relation to the power over the minds of mankind which I hold, I would say, It is in consequence of the power of truth in the doctrines which I have been an instrument in the hands of God of presenting unto them, and not because of any compulsion on my part. … I ask, Did I ever exercise any compulsion over any man? Did I not give him the liberty of disbelieving any doctrine I have preached, if he saw fit? Why do not my enemies strike a blow at the doctrine? They cannot do it: it is truth, and I defy all men to upset it.”

There are folks that have a distorted view of what the church and its leaders are all about. Its only purpose is to bring people to Christ and exercise faith in Him and his Father through choosing to obey and practice the principles and doctrines of the gospel.

But at the end of the day we have total free agency to do so or not. You both have exercised that right to separate yourselves from the church. Nothing stopped you. You now govern yourselves by certain principles that you find amenable to your condition.

So again, the whole program of the church rests on the idea that correct principles are taught and we determine how we govern ourselves. That includes the leaders who also travel their own path of salvation.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

...You now govern yourselves by certain principles that you find amenable to your condition...

What do you mean by this?

[Kishkumen]

There are folks that have a distorted view of what the church and its leaders are all about. Its only purpose is to bring people to Christ and exercise faith in Him and his Father through choosing to obey and practice the principles and doctrines of the gospel.

I have no doubt that they and you are completely sincere. It is also possible to be completely sincere and well intended, while being wrong. I see your view as distorted, but I am not going to be rude about it.

But at the end of the day we have total free agency to do so or not. You both have exercised that right to separate yourselves from the church. Nothing stopped you. You now govern yourselves by certain principles that you find amenable to your condition.

Thank goodness. Extremists within the LDS Church and elsewhere would love to be able to tell us what to do. For the time being we remain free to make our own choices, without having to suffer too much the direct assault of extremist thinking and power.

So again, the whole program of the church rests on the idea that correct principles are taught and we determine how we govern ourselves. That includes the leaders who also travel their own path of salvation.

Regards,
MG

I have no doubt that you sincerely believe what you are saying. I disagree with you, because I see things differently. I don't think the LDS Church does allow its members to "govern themselves." If they had, I might still be a member.

[MG 2.0]

...You now govern yourselves by certain principles that you find amenable to your condition...

What do you mean by this?

Do you have certain principles that you live your life by? If so, do you find them amenable to the lifestyle and beliefs that you hold to be most meaningful and purposeful for you?

If so, you govern yourself.

Regards,
MG