Joseph Smith--the best 'wing man' Brigham Young ever had

[MG 2.0]

The thing is, is Elizabeth DID know...better than any of us...what was going on with Martha. Read her affidavit one more time. I posted it earlier.

Regards,
MG

You really think the fact that Elizabeth, the only one of the Brotherton family that did not leave Mormonism two months after arriving in Nauvoo, stayed helps your argument?

It may. She may have been the only one in her family, including Martha, that deeply believed in its spiritual principles and teachings. Again, I will link to this:

https://jared.pratt-family.org/parley_f ... raphy.html

An interesting fact:

According to the available documentary evidence, none of the thirty-five plural wives married to Joseph Smith ever criticized him or his treatment of them. Three of them passed away in Nauvoo before the Saints left for the Rocky Mountains and, by all accounts, retained their faith in Joseph and the Church. Twenty-five made the trek to the Salt Lake Valley and apparently maintained a belief in Joseph Smith’s mission throughout the remainder of their lives.
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/wp- ... lygamy.pdf

Martha Brotherton gave her affidavit after having left Nauvoo with her family. What kind of influences acted upon her are undetermined through the haze of history and documentation. What we do know is that Joseph in other situations did not apply undue pressure upon women to marry him.

Some writers affirm that Joseph Smith put pressure on women to marry him. They portray him almost as a predator gallivanting about Nauvoo seeking new wives, even marrying other men’s spouses. While it makes for an entertaining storyline, it does not square with the historical record. One of Joseph’s plural wives, Lucy Walker, remembered the Prophet's counsel: “A woman would have her choice, this was a privilege that could not be denied her.”7 The Prophet taught that eternal marriage was necessary for exaltation and encouraged all those he taught to comply, but he always respected their agency and choices in the matter.
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/wp- ... lygamy.pdf

Different strokes for different folks, it seems. The same thing is true today.

Regards,
MG

[Morley]

You really think the fact that Elizabeth, the only one of the Brotherton family that did not leave Mormonism two months after arriving in Nauvoo, stayed helps your argument?

It may. She may have been the only one in her family, including Martha, that deeply believed in its spiritual principles and teachings. Again, I will link to this:

https://jared.pratt-family.org/parley_f ... raphy.html

An interesting fact:

According to the available documentary evidence, none of the thirty-five plural wives married to Joseph Smith ever criticized him or his treatment of them. Three of them passed away in Nauvoo before the Saints left for the Rocky Mountains and, by all accounts, retained their faith in Joseph and the Church. Twenty-five made the trek to the Salt Lake Valley and apparently maintained a belief in Joseph Smith’s mission throughout the remainder of their lives.
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/wp- ... lygamy.pdf

Martha Brotherton gave her affidavit after having left Nauvoo with her family. What kind of influences acted upon her are undetermined through the haze of history and documentation. What we do know is that Joseph in other situations did not apply undue pressure upon women to marry him.

Some writers affirm that Joseph Smith put pressure on women to marry him. They portray him almost as a predator gallivanting about Nauvoo seeking new wives, even marrying other men’s spouses. While it makes for an entertaining storyline, it does not square with the historical record. One of Joseph’s plural wives, Lucy Walker, remembered the Prophet's counsel: “A woman would have her choice, this was a privilege that could not be denied her.”7 The Prophet taught that eternal marriage was necessary for exaltation and encouraged all those he taught to comply, but he always respected their agency and choices in the matter.
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/wp- ... lygamy.pdf

Different strokes for different folks, it seems. The same thing is true today.

Regards,
MG

Any woman denying the prophet or his inner circle was more than likely to have her reputation besmirched, just like what happened Brotherton. And just like what you yourself delighted in doing, when you called Brotherton a disciple of Bennett, just a few pages ago.

Joseph lied about polygamy. He lied about everything having to do with polygamy. He lied to his wife. He lied his potential wives. He lied to church members. He lied to the press. He lied from the beginning to the end. He sealed his testimony and went to his death lying about polygamy. He and his crew have no credibility when defending themselves on polygamy. 'An angel with a sword made me do it.' Because of this, apologists who defend him in his prevarications have no credibility, either.

[Marcus]

<snipped>

Any woman denying the prophet or his inner circle was more than likely to have her reputation besmirched, just like what happened Brotherton. And just like what you yourself delighted in doing, when you called Brotherton a disciple of Bennett, just a few pages ago.

Joseph lied about polygamy. He lied about everything having to do with polygamy. He lied to his wife. He lied his potential wives. He lied to church members. He lied to the press. He lied from the beginning to the end. He sealed his testimony and went to his death lying about polygamy. He and his crew have no credibility when defending themselves on polygamy. 'An angel with a sword made me do it.' Because of this, apologists who defend him in his prevarications have no credibility, either.

No, they don't. And this argument that somehow it's okay because FAIR (a thoroughly disreputable source) says the women didn't feel pressured is ridiculous. What Smith did is not okay, regardless of who did or didn't go along.

Just a couple of examples: He married young teenagers, minors, while in his 30s, secretly, while he was already married. They are too young to consent even if they thought they did. He married minors to whom he was a foster parent. He married women and their sisters, women and their mothers, women and their daughters. He married women who were already married. He had affairs with and then married his household staff. All this behind the back of his legal wife.

Arguing sick niceties such as 'some people didn't mind' doesn't make the despicableness of the act any better. All it does is show the despicableness of the person or group trying to justify such heinous behavior.

One final point on using FAIR sources. I used to look at the FAIR sources offered, and I never once found an article where the footnotes actually supported the statement they were footnoting. After multiple experiences of that with FAIR references I have given up on even reading them. I know they will obfuscate, use sources dishonestly, and abuse the footnoting process--every single time. They are not a reputable source of information.

[Rivendale]

Any woman denying the prophet or his inner circle was more than likely to have her reputation besmirched, just like what happened Brotherton. And just like what you yourself delighted in doing, when you called Brotherton a disciple of Bennett, just a few pages ago.

Joseph lied about polygamy. He lied about everything having to do with polygamy. He lied to his wife. He lied his potential wives. He lied to church members. He lied to the press. He lied from the beginning to the end. He sealed his testimony and went to his death lying about polygamy. He and his crew have no credibility when defending themselves on polygamy. 'An angel with a sword made me do it.' Because of this, apologists who defend him in his prevarications have no credibility, either.

No, they don't. And this argument that somehow it's okay because FAIR (a thoroughly disreputable source) says the women didn't feel pressured is ridiculous. What Smith did is not okay, regardless of who did or didn't go along.

Just a couple of examples: He married young teenagers, minors, while in his 30s, secretly, while he was already married. They are too young to consent even if they thought they did. He married minors to whom he was a foster parent. He married women and their sisters, women and their mothers, women and their daughters. He married women who were already married. He had affairs with and then married his household staff. All this behind the back of his legal wife.

Arguing sick niceties such as 'some people didn't mind' doesn't make the despicableness of the act any better. All it does is show the despicableness of the person or group trying to justify such heinous behavior.

One final point on using FAIR sources. I used to look at the FAIR sources offered, and I never once found an article where the footnotes actually supported the statement they were footnoting. After multiple experiences of that with FAIR references I have given up on even reading them. I know they will obfuscate, use sources dishonestly, and abuse the footnoting process--every single time. They are not a reputable source of information.

The sick niceties are replete within the excuses believers use. The last retreat for believers is usually to the argument that biblical prophets did some rotten things. In essence believers excuse sexual coercion of minors by saying we either look through a glass darkly or the fog of history supports both sides. Emma was made a fool when she exhorted the relief society members to root out spiritual wifery and polygamy when in fact many of the women were having sex with her husband.

[Morley]

An artifact from one of Joseph Smith’s dynastic polygamous relationships:


Joseph Smith to Sarah Ann Whitney (Aug. 18, 1842)

“My Dear and Beloved Brother and Sister Whitney, and &c.—
I take this opportunity to communicate, some of my feelings, private, that you may know my mind, concerning what I would say to you, if I was present with you. …

The only thing to be careful of, is to find out when Emma comes, then you cannot be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safety. …

One thing I want to see you for is to get the fulness of my blessings sealed upon our heads. … The reason I have been so long in writing, is because I have been afraid lest you are not alone, lest some one might see my letter, and write what they saw or heard; and if it got out, it would destroy me.

… I think Emma won’t come tonight, if she don’t, don’t fail to come to night. I am with you in spirit. God bless you. Amen.

Yours in the bonds of the everlasting covenant,

Joseph Smith”

(source: Joseph Smith, Letter to Newel K. Whitney and Elizabeth Ann Whitney, Aug. 18, 1842, LDS Church History Library; quoted in Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness [1997], p. 349–350.)

[MG 2.0]

It may. She may have been the only one in her family, including Martha, that deeply believed in its spiritual principles and teachings. Again, I will link to this:

https://jared.pratt-family.org/parley_f ... raphy.html

An interesting fact:



Martha Brotherton gave her affidavit after having left Nauvoo with her family. What kind of influences acted upon her are undetermined through the haze of history and documentation. What we do know is that Joseph in other situations did not apply undue pressure upon women to marry him.



Different strokes for different folks, it seems. The same thing is true today.

Regards,
MG

Any woman denying the prophet or his inner circle was more than likely to have her reputation besmirched, just like what happened Brotherton. And just like what you yourself delighted in doing, when you called Brotherton a disciple of Bennett, just a few pages ago.

Joseph lied about polygamy. He lied about everything having to do with polygamy. He lied to his wife. He lied his potential wives. He lied to church members. He lied to the press. He lied from the beginning to the end. He sealed his testimony and went to his death lying about polygamy. He and his crew have no credibility when defending themselves on polygamy. 'An angel with a sword made me do it.' Because of this, apologists who defend him in his prevarications have no credibility, either.

If you’ve read the information I’ve posted it seems to portray a woman (Elizabeth) who was truly converted to the gospel and the truth she saw in it…rather than any one man. She remained steadfast in her testimony at the expense of alienating her sister and her family. When she pointed the finger at Martha she would have known that was the end of her sisterly relationship. Wouldn’t you think that this must have torn her apart?

It makes one at least suspicious of the relationship Martha had with the scoundrel named John C. Bennett.

Regards,
MG

[Morley]

If you’ve read the information I’ve posted it seems to portray a woman (Elizabeth) who was truly converted to the gospel and the truth she saw in it…rather than any one man. She remained steadfast in her testimony at the expense of alienating her sister and her family. When she pointed the finger at Martha she would have known that was the end of her sisterly relationship. Wouldn’t you think that this must have torn her apart?

It makes one at least suspicious of the relationship Martha had with the scoundrel named John C. Bennett.

Regards,
MG

How does anything in your first paragraph lead to anything you say in the second one?

[MG 2.0]

Any woman denying the prophet or his inner circle was more than likely to have her reputation besmirched, just like what happened Brotherton. And just like what you yourself delighted in doing, when you called Brotherton a disciple of Bennett, just a few pages ago.

Joseph lied about polygamy. He lied about everything having to do with polygamy. He lied to his wife. He lied his potential wives. He lied to church members. He lied to the press. He lied from the beginning to the end. He sealed his testimony and went to his death lying about polygamy. He and his crew have no credibility when defending themselves on polygamy. 'An angel with a sword made me do it.' Because of this, apologists who defend him in his prevarications have no credibility, either.

No, they don't. And this argument that somehow it's okay because FAIR (a thoroughly disreputable source) says the women didn't feel pressured is ridiculous. What Smith did is not okay, regardless of who did or didn't go along.

Just a couple of examples: He married young teenagers, minors, while in his 30s, secretly, while he was already married. They are too young to consent even if they thought they did. He married minors to whom he was a foster parent. He married women and their sisters, women and their mothers, women and their daughters. He married women who were already married. He had affairs with and then married his household staff. All this behind the back of his legal wife.

Arguing sick niceties such as 'some people didn't mind' doesn't make the despicableness of the act any better. All it does is show the despicableness of the person or group trying to justify such heinous behavior.

One final point on using FAIR sources. I used to look at the FAIR sources offered, and I never once found an article where the footnotes actually supported the statement they were footnoting. After multiple experiences of that with FAIR references I have given up on even reading them. I know they will obfuscate, use sources dishonestly, and abuse the footnoting process--every single time. They are not a reputable source of information.

disreputable, ridiculous, sick niceties, despicableness, heinous behavior.

Ok. We know you feel that way.

After multiple experiences of that with FAIR references I have given up on even reading them. I know they will obfuscate, use sources dishonestly, and abuse the footnoting process--every single time. They are not a reputable source of information.

And yes, we know where you’re coming from.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

If you’ve read the information I’ve posted it seems to portray a woman (Elizabeth) who was truly converted to the gospel and the truth she saw in it…rather than any one man. She remained steadfast in her testimony at the expense of alienating her sister and her family. When she pointed the finger at Martha she would have known that was the end of her sisterly relationship. Wouldn’t you think that this must have torn her apart?

It makes one at least suspicious of the relationship Martha had with the scoundrel named John C. Bennett.

Regards,
MG

How does anything in your first paragraph lead to anything you say in the second one?

Pot calling kettle. One doesn’t have to look very far up thread to see an ACTUAL example (yours) of a second paragraph of a response not having anything to do with the substance of what was being said by the poster being responded to. Namely, me. I will leave it to you to make the connection on this most recent post. The second paragraph does have a substantial ‘potential connection’ with the first.

It doesn’t take much to connect the dots.

Regards,
MG

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Pot calling kettle. One doesn’t have to look very far up thread to see an ACTUAL example (yours) of a second paragraph of a response not having anything to do with the substance of what was being said by the poster being responded to. Namely, me. I will leave it to you to make the connection on this most recent post. The second paragraph does have a substantial ‘potential connection’ with the first.

It doesn’t take much to connect the dots.

That’s some great missionary work, Fibber.