DCP throws the prophet Kimball under the bus

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drumdude
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Re: DCP throws the prophet Kimball under the bus

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DCP again has not engaged with the basic counterarguments to his terrible population genetics arguments. I've reposted Simon Southerton's criticisms of their approach here. Again, I'm not writing to DCP because I know he will not engage with anything of substance. I'm writing for everyone reading to be the judge.
Simon Southerton wrote:BYU-aligned DNA apologetics

I recently watched a two-minute Facebook clip by former Scripture Central apologist Jasmin Rappleye. In the clip she summarises the current DNA apologetic arguments being perpetuated by the Church's quasi-official apologists at Scripture Central and FAIR. The main line of defence these days (after shooting the messenger) appears to be to overlook what the Book of Mormon literally says and to focus attention on what they believe are limitations of the DNA science. These apologists now concede that Lehi's DNA has not been detected in Native Americans. So their only option is to point out weaknesses in the technology to explain why it hasn't been found.

Today, the apologist's arguments are presented by unqualified zealots like Jasmin, but they are based on 20-year-old BYU apologetic responses to maternal and paternal DNA research. In the last 15 years, however, scientists studying the ancestry of human populations have focussed most of their attention on nuclear DNA. That’s because it carries millions of DNA markers that can be used to investigate ancestry. It's far more powerful technology. Scientists studying nuclear DNA can easily distinguish Hebrew or semitic DNA from Native American DNA. And despite testing thousands of individuals, scientists have failed to detect the early arrival of semitic DNA.

Not only is LDS apologetics outdated, it is also misleading. For years apologists have accused critics (me) of not understanding the science because I’m not a population geneticist. This is a lie. I was a principal scientist in Australia's national science agency, CSIRO, and I have published several papers in the field of population genetics (e.g. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0103515)). The bulk of FAIR and Scripture Central's apologetic defences focus on the risk of losing, or not detecting, an individual's DNA. But scientists studying indigenous Americans are not basing their conclusions on individuals, they are studying large numbers of individuals in populations. The fact that they persist with this apologetic smoke screen suggests they have little understanding of population genetics.

Here I respond to the four main arguments that BYU-aligned apologists still persist with. These are pretty much the same arguments used in the Church's DNA essay. Keep an eye out for when they focus attention on how easy it is to lose an individual's DNA. The quotes below are based on the text accompanying Jasmin’s video. Interestingly, Jasmin has recently ditched Scripture Central, followed prophetic counsel (and the money more likely) and “put on a little lipstick”, and started her own apologetic channel. Good for her. We now get to see just how crazy she gets without those annoying suits at Scripture Central reining her in.

1. Lehi’s DNA is unknowable

We have no idea what Lehi’s exact DNA looked like, and we have no way to know what it would have been. We can’t assume that Lehi’s individual, ancient DNA would be representative of modern Middle Eastern DNA. If Lehi, as the founder of the Nephite population, had any genetic markers that were atypical of ancient Israelites at the time, identifying Lehi’s descendants through Middle Eastern DNA would be impossible.

The Book of Mormon tells us that Lehi belonged to the Tribe of Manasseh. But the group was not just comprised of the individual Lehi. The group also included his wife Sariah, his four sons, Ishmael and his wife and two sons and five daughters and Zoram. And let's not forget the Mulekites who arrived at the same time and merged with the Lehites. The ancestry of all these people was almost certainly Hebrew. Hebrews are closely related to Arabs and both belong to the semitic language group.

At the very least the nuclear DNA of Lehi's party's and the Mulekites would have been overwhelmingly semitic. Semitic populations carry millions of unique nuclear DNA markers that can be used to distinguish them from all other populations on the planet. There can be no doubt, if the Lehites existed they would have carried semitic DNA which is easily detectable today.

We do not need ancient DNA from 2,000-year-old Hebrews to get an idea what Lehi's semitic DNA looks like, although we have it anyway. Scientists are isolating DNA from hundreds of ancient skeletons to trace the movement of humans all over the globe and they have compared ancient semitic DNA with their living descendants today. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_of_Jews The vast majority of uniquely semitic DNA markers can be found in the DNA of living and ancient Hebrew populations.

2. Lehite DNA was diluted away

The Americas were already populated. Lehi’s family of like 20 people would have interacted almost immediately with the larger indigenous populations, forever complicating efforts to trace their DNA lineages.

The Book of Mormon states clearly that the descendants of Lehi “prospered” and “multiplied exceedingly” in the land. They continuously led New World civilisations with large populations for a thousand years. So, let’s stop ignoring what the text says and pretending the Lehites would have made no impact on New World populations. Even if they were a small group, as they mixed with indigenous populations their genes will have moved into the surrounding populations. Indigenous populations will have preserved their DNA rather than causing its extinction.

We have a beautiful illustration of this happening out in the Pacific. In 2020 scientists discovered that people living in French Polynesia carried small traces of Zenu (Colombian) DNA that had arrived in about AD 1230. Given the sailing skill of Polynesians, it is almost certain this Zenu DNA was brought into the Pacific on a return voyage of Polynesians who had reached the coast of Colombia in about AD 1230. The highest concentrations of Zenu DNA were found in the North and South Marquesas Islands (4%). But scientists found traces of Zenu DNA (as little as 0.01%) in numerous other islands in Eastern Polynesia that were separated by many thousands of miles of ocean. The Zenu DNA was preserved in Polynesian populations in exactly the way we would expect Lehi’s DNA to be preserved in the Americas. See https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2487-2

3. Lehi’s DNA is undetectable

Most genetic information from the past does not survive into present populations. Because most DNA studies are dependent on genetic markers that run along the paternal and maternal lines (so you’re only seeing 2 lines of a vast family tree) we only get a picture of 0.01% of a person’s total DNA. If you go back just 10 generations, or a couple hundred years, you’ll have over a thousand ancestors, yet only be able to detect genetic information from one or two of those ancestors. Then try doing that for several thousand years when the Book of Mormon took place.

Most DNA studies today are not focussed on paternal (Y-chromosome) or maternal (mitochondrial) DNA lines. They are focussed on nuclear DNA which carries far more genetic information and is far less prone to being lost in our family tree.

Yes, it is true that men carry paternal and maternal DNA from only 2, and women only carry maternal DNA from 1, out of their 1024 ancestors 10 generations back. We also only carry nuclear DNA from roughly 120 of those same 1024 ancestors. But human population geneticists do not base their conclusions on individuals, they are studying large numbers of individuals in populations. That’s why the field of research is called population genetics.

By definition a distinct population with a shared history (e.g the Maya) contains large numbers of people who are related and many will carry the same or very similar DNA. If an individual does not pass on their DNA, there will be many close or even distant relatives who do survive to pass on the same DNA lineages. While 511 of your 512 maternal ancestors 10 generations back may not pass on their maternal DNA to you, many of them will have passed on their DNA to other individuals in your population.

With nuclear DNA the chances of DNA loss are far, far, smaller. While you individually may only carry DNA from 120 out of those 1024 ancestors 10 generations back, there will be many other individuals in your population who are likely to descend from those 1024 ancestors. Scientists are now studying the nuclear DNA of hundreds or even thousands of Native Americans. This gives them the power to easily detect any pre-Columbian introduction of semitic DNA into indigenous populations. But they have not detecting it.

4. Lehi’s DNA was unlucky

Population bottlenecks due to warfare, natural disaster, or disease put excessive pressure on the Lehite population so that only a small fraction of the original gene pool survives. Obviously, the Book of Mormon talks about a massive Nephite destruction that would have wiped out a lot of genetic markers, but even more significantly, the pre-Columbian American population underwent one of the largest bottlenecks in human history after European contact, which included a lot of deaths but also genetic intermixing with the Old World populations.

Natural disasters and disease epidemics would only make it harder to detect Lamanites if they died at a far greater rate than the general population. Why would the Lamanites be more susceptible to death by earthquakes, floods or cyclones? The apologists are asking us to believe the Lamanites were somehow more susceptible to being killed by natural disasters than the Native Americans they lived with. This is ludicrous and it conflicts with the Book of Mormon which says the Lamanites would be preserved so they could receive the gospel from the gentiles in the latter days.

Why would the Lamanites be more susceptible to Old World diseases anyway? There is every reason to believe the descendants of Lehi would have carried more resistance to Old World diseases than indigenous groups. Resistance to many Old World diseases was built up over at least 10,000 years as humans gathered in close communities. The Lehites had the benefit of having ancestors exposed to Old World diseases for about 8,000 years. If anything, they ought to have brought with them higher resistance to disease epidemics than indigenous Americans.

Conclusion
Modern DNA technology is perfectly designed to dig deep into the ancestry of human populations to uncover their genetic roots. This is how scientists discovered most of us carry about 2% Neanderthal and 0.2% Denisovan DNA. If a Hebrew group did arrive in the Americas and their descendants led large populations for a thousand years, as the Book of Mormon clearly states, we would expect to see Hebrew DNA in New World populations. We were able to find traces of one or a handful of Zenu in Polynesia. Yet in the Americas, which have been more widely and deeply studied, scientists have found nothing after 40 years of looking.

They have found nothing because the Book of Mormon is fake history.
The only people on the planet who are persuaded by DCP's argument are other Mormons. And even then it's likely not convincing, it's just a way for Mormons to sleep better at night knowing that there's a possible solution to this incredibly salient problem - no matter how infinitesimally unlikely that solution is.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... _fair_and/
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Tom
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Re: DCP throws the prophet Kimball under the bus

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malkie wrote:
Sat Sep 27, 2025 3:49 am
Tom wrote:
Sat Sep 27, 2025 3:25 am
I had not heard of missionaries using the name Lamanite Generation and ward and branch members portraying Lamanites in performances. I assume this took place in the 1970s.
It was around 1975 or so. I remember that because I asked for permission to use a meeting room in the college I taught at for a lunch-time "teaser", and I was teaching there from about 1974 to 1977.

You're raising doubts in my mind about the naming of the local shows. Unfortunately the only person I can think of to help me remember is sliding into dementia, and is avoiding talking about anything from that time. So I could well be mistaken about the name, and have no way to check :(

I also remember clearly that the regular missionaries around that time were extremely dismissive of anything that the local members did, but they were favourably impressed with our performance.

It's possible that I have a photo or two from the show - I'm pretty sure there's at least one of Elder Curtis Klovansky performing the Hoop Dance. I'll try to find them if you're interested.
Absolutely. Did any of the local, white Scottish members feel uncomfortable portraying Lamanites?
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Re: DCP throws the prophet Kimball under the bus

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Tom wrote:
Sat Sep 27, 2025 4:45 am
malkie wrote:
Sat Sep 27, 2025 3:49 am
It was around 1975 or so. I remember that because I asked for permission to use a meeting room in the college I taught at for a lunch-time "teaser", and I was teaching there from about 1974 to 1977.

You're raising doubts in my mind about the naming of the local shows. Unfortunately the only person I can think of to help me remember is sliding into dementia, and is avoiding talking about anything from that time. So I could well be mistaken about the name, and have no way to check :(

I also remember clearly that the regular missionaries around that time were extremely dismissive of anything that the local members did, but they were favourably impressed with our performance.

It's possible that I have a photo or two from the show - I'm pretty sure there's at least one of Elder Curtis Klovansky performing the Hoop Dance. I'll try to find them if you're interested.
Absolutely. Did any of the local, white Scottish members feel uncomfortable portraying Lamanites?
I don't think we really thought about it. I'm fairly certain that nobody complained. We had a real assertive Relief Society President at the time, who would have left us leaders & missionaries in no doubt if the sisters (and especially the kids) had qualms.
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Re: DCP throws the prophet Kimball under the bus

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malkie wrote:
Sat Sep 27, 2025 5:01 am
Tom wrote:
Sat Sep 27, 2025 4:45 am
Absolutely. Did any of the local, white Scottish members feel uncomfortable portraying Lamanites?
I don't think we really thought about it. I'm fairly certain that nobody complained. We had a real assertive Relief Society President at the time, who would have left us leaders & missionaries in no doubt if the sisters (and especially the kids) had qualms.
I assume that Elder Curtis Klovansky was the same young man who died in a plane crash in Utah in 1978. I located a photo of a Curtis Klovansky in costume with captions indicating that he was an Ancient America Speaks performer in the Scotland Edinburgh Mission around 1976. (I know the film of that name, but I am not familiar with a play or stage performance of that name.)
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Re: DCP throws the prophet Kimball under the bus

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Tom wrote:
Sat Sep 27, 2025 5:23 am
malkie wrote:
Sat Sep 27, 2025 5:01 am
I don't think we really thought about it. I'm fairly certain that nobody complained. We had a real assertive Relief Society President at the time, who would have left us leaders & missionaries in no doubt if the sisters (and especially the kids) had qualms.
I assume that Elder Curtis Klovansky was the same young man who died in a plane crash in Utah in 1978. I located a photo of a Curtis Klovansky in costume with captions indicating that he was an Ancient America Speaks performer in the Scotland Edinburgh Mission around 1976. (I know the film of that name, but I am not familiar with a play or stage performance of that name.)
Ahhh - yes, Tom, you're right. Thanks for the correction. Oldtimers memory strikes again. I was aware that Curtis had died that way.
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Re: DCP throws the prophet Kimball under the bus

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malkie wrote:
Sat Sep 27, 2025 10:48 am
Tom wrote:
Sat Sep 27, 2025 5:23 am
I assume that Elder Curtis Klovansky was the same young man who died in a plane crash in Utah in 1978. I located a photo of a Curtis Klovansky in costume with captions indicating that he was an Ancient America Speaks performer in the Scotland Edinburgh Mission around 1976. (I know the film of that name, but I am not familiar with a play or stage performance of that name.)
Ahhh - yes, Tom, you're right. Thanks for the correction. Oldtimers memory strikes again. I was aware that Curtis had died that way.
Thank you for sharing your memories and entertaining my questions, malkie. I find this all to be very interesting Mormon history.

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Re: DCP throws the prophet Kimball under the bus

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drumdude wrote:
Sat Sep 27, 2025 4:24 am
1. Lehi’s DNA is unknowable

We have no idea what Lehi’s exact DNA looked like, and we have no way to know what it would have been.
Jasmine might have better luck if she postulated a Siberian rather than an Israelite means of DNA transmission.
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