When you refer to Joseph Smith, Jr. being a "pious fraud," do you mean he was a pious knowing fraud, or a pious unknowing fraud?
This clip from his interview with Gospel Tangents might help, as well his two biographies, Making of a Prophet, and Charisma Under Pressure.
And since everyone here seems to be arguing amongst themselves, I think it'd be best to contact Vogel directly if you want the best answer as he's on this forum.
He's also active in the comments of his Youtube videos, so maybe go there. He's also on Facebook.
When you refer to Joseph Smith, Jr. being a "pious fraud," do you mean he was a pious knowing fraud, or a pious unknowing fraud?
The term "pious fraud" has no meaning unless it's about knowingly committing fraud.
At the end of the day, if one cares about reality, it's the fraud that matters. The pious part is irrelevant.
Just like at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what a child molester claims about the victim "really wanting it". It's the molestation that matters.
When you refer to Joseph Smith, Jr. being a "pious fraud," do you mean he was a pious knowing fraud, or a pious unknowing fraud?
Of course, Joseph Smith knew the plates weren't real. So, he was a conscious fraud. At the same time, I think he believed he was called by God to use deception. This is speculation based on his own teachings, but I think he worked out the scheme in his own mind and received confirmation through a burning in his bosom. I think this was his general method.
When you refer to Joseph Smith, Jr. being a "pious fraud," do you mean he was a pious knowing fraud, or a pious unknowing fraud?
Of course, Joseph Smith knew the plates weren't real. So, he was a conscious fraud. At the same time, I think he believed he was called by God to use deception. This is speculation based on his own teachings, but I think he worked out the scheme in his own mind and received confirmation through a burning in his bosom. I think this was his general method.
Dan, also a thanks. I believe Brodie worked with this general idea.
I have wondered if it is possible there were some metal plates, perhaps printing, which somebody hid and could not return to. Perhaps Joseph found such and convinced himself they were ancient records. Well that still includes a leap of imagination and is perhaps less likely than fashioning plates with the story.
Of course, Joseph Smith knew the plates weren't real. So, he was a conscious fraud. At the same time, I think he believed he was called by God to use deception. This is speculation based on his own teachings, but I think he worked out the scheme in his own mind and received confirmation through a burning in his bosom. I think this was his general method.
Dan, also a thanks. I believe Brodie worked with this general idea.
I have wondered if it is possible there were some metal plates, perhaps printing, which somebody hid and could not return to. Perhaps Joseph found such and convinced himself they were ancient records. Well that still includes a leap of imagination and is perhaps less likely than fashioning plates with the story.
Brodie's Joseph Smith was essentially not sincere, although, in a supplement in the 2nd edition, she considered he may have come to believe his own lies.
For my own theory of the plates, see my new video "Could Joseph Smith Have Made the Plates? A Response to the Mormon Apologists.”
My understanding of the «pious fraud» concept is that it takes into account the apparent fervor of Joseph Smith jr, where there is little evidence of out of character flipswitches even when he could have, were he not to some degree sincere.
I believe JSjr not only used the seerstone from his folk-magic days, but the whole skillset and logic of leaning your mind into a stone, and believing that «seeing with spiritual eyes» and mentally visualizing while concentrating, was the same thing, as long as emotional experiences occurred while «using the reasoning of the mind».
This is the method and logic JSjr lays out for Oliver, when he fails at translating the Book of Mormon. Creating fraudulent objects trying to prop the believed imaginations of his mind, could amount to being a pious fraud.
I believe some of the clue lies in what JSsr and the other moneydiggers influences JSjr with. They were trying to tap into a magical/supernatural realm, and had a logic that was founded on combining imagination, props and storytelling skills, where emotions were an important part of the believability of it.
