It's pretty much accepted fact that there were 'plates' at this point.
Yes, there were plates! When Josiah Stowell secured them through the window and grabbed hold of them he saw what could be construed as a quarter of a block of metal which resembled a stone of a greenish caste which very likely consisted of a stack of roofing tin and maybe even a block of lead at the bottom. It was a lovely trick!
I suppose that I'm suggesting a little humility in recognizing there is not just one way of looking at this.
I humbly tell you that the plates were green according to the man who saw the cloth slip away in his very arms. I also, humbly tell you that there is no king's name in Facsimile No. 3 and that Joseph Smith snipped Anubis's nose off faster than a doctor can snip off your foreskin.
So, in a sense, Josiah Stowell saw the plates and they were GREEN!
PS. I take my hat off to Vogel. He nailed it.
Shulem, or Dan, do you think copper printing plates could have been the object used? Copper turns green when it oxidizes.
Personally, I think Joe was too poor to purchase or acquire the copper needed to pull off his trick. I think he resorted to cheap left over tin that he got for nothing -- or stole from some building or warehouse. Joe stole everything he ever got! That was how he operated.
Shulem, or Dan, do you think copper printing plates could have been the object used? Copper turns green when it oxidizes.
Personally, I think Joe was too poor to purchase or acquire the copper needed to pull off his trick. I think he resorted to cheap left over tin that he got for nothing -- or stole from some building or warehouse. Joe stole everything he ever got! That was how he operated.
Witnesses claimed to hear tinkling or rustling sounds produced by what must have been metallic-like leaves. The hefting action required to lift the covered plates indicates there was metal(s) used to form the block and leaves. I think there were tin leaves atop a stack of stationary metal that acted as the sealed portion. All of this of course was witnessed and performed while the plates remained covered. Just close your eyes, visualize, reach under the cloth and touch the plates, feel, pretend, and drink some mushroom wine for added effect.
I watched part of the video, at a certain point the desperation of the apologist defenses loses my interest. I think I'm in agreement with you that Joseph Smith could have and likely did build his own set of plates. Giving the apologists the benefit of the doubt, even if there were real gold plates, a decoy set could be of tremendous value. Am I the only one who read The Sword of Shannara as a kid? The narrative as we have it is implicitly a critics narrative, a story about someone desperately trying to prove something he hasn't where if he had, he'd be playing to down to avoid being a target.
The discussion about the evidence value of the visionary experience is interesting. 8x6x4 is the dimension of a standard tile brick from the time. Had the three ever seen a tile brick under a cloth they'd have the right idea about the dimensions.
I'm not a Mormon history buff, I have at times tried to reconcile accounts of the plates though. It's so weird; like fragments of different stories all put together. The plates are hidden in beans on the trip Harmony, but to get them to Fayette, oh, Moroni grabbed them and brought them back. Sometimes they're under a cloth on the table and sometimes in the forest.
I get this sense that Joseph Smith wasn't a deep plotter like Mark Hoffman. He was a bullshitter, and quite proud of himself for his ability to read the room and play it by ear. Do you think that's right or do you think he had a detailed plan? What I'm curious about, is that although I think he very like constructed plates at some point -- do you think he constructed the plates and consistently used them? He strikes me as a guy who may have used whatever was available. Part of the fun might be to see how close he can cut it and get away with it. Perhaps he used his constructed plates one day, a brick the next, and the next time nothing, just pure suggestion.
Finally, if he was narcissistic or a sociopath, would that be a spin on the pious fraud idea, as these types are delusional and see themselves as the hero and victim no matter what? Narcissists are inherently "pious". Or was his psychology normal and one of those people with a normal appreciation that he was doing wrong, but got caught up in the web.
"if you can't admire Joe Biden as a person then it's probably, you got a problem." -- Lindsey Graham
Witnesses claimed to hear tinkling or rustling sounds produced by what must have been metallic-like leaves. The hefting action required to lift the covered plates indicates there was metal(s) used to form the block and leaves. I think there were tin leaves atop a stack of stationary metal that acted as the sealed portion. All of this of course was witnessed and performed while the plates remained covered. Just close your eyes, visualize, reach under the cloth and touch the plates, feel, pretend, and drink some mushroom wine for added effect.
I think he had both. Metal and a block of wood to give more bulk.
I think he had both. Metal and a block of wood to give more bulk.
Rest assured the remains are buried somewhere near Fayette, New York. Depending on where he buried them and under what conditions, there are still traces of the original plates and maybe something else too. Let's meet up in New York and use our magical powers to find the plates! We can find them! Imagine how much the Church would pay for them!
