Our newest member, Wayneman: Shades' missionary companion??

[_Jason Bourne]

To think that a church puts people like you in positions of authority over others, is telling of the flaws and weakness in the system. What standard of care did they use in choosing you?

This comment lacks any rational reasoning or critical thinking that marg seems the think she has more than most here. First, what Ray is or is not now may be very different from what he was in the 80s when a bishop.

Next, Marg makes this sweeping conclusion about the flaws of the LDS Church's selection of bishops based on her assessment of Ray that comes from a message board. One wonders how much one can really tell about someone on a message board. The interacting here is narrow and limited and often focused on heated debates and disagreements. So often one will see the worst in their opponents behavior especially when it becomes a heated argument.

Really Marg knows absolutely nothing about the way and LDS bishop is selected yet she uses her apprarent disdain of Ray to beat the LDS Church with. Way to go marg.

Now as one who is very familiar with the LDS Church process of selecting bishops I can tell you that it is a system that actually can be less than perfect. Wow. Imagine that. But in about 80% or more of the cases where a bishop is selected it ends up working quite well. It is actually a fairly careful and well thought out process in most cases.

[_Jason Bourne]

Well, it goes something like this. A person serves a mission, has a temple recommend, pays tithing, etc., serves in callings, is usually raising a young family, and the stake president feels impressed that he should be the next bishop, but makes no move until he confides with his counselors, then they pray for confirmation.

It's not something you'd understand. But that's the way it works in the Church.

To add and modify, they do not have to have served a mission. And usually the SP, his counselors and the current bishop of the ward meet and discuss five or six candidates from the ward and go over their abilities, strengths and weaknesses. The SP and his counselors narrow it down, make a selection, pray about it. They then have to send the candidates name to the headquarters of the church for First Presidency approval. Once that is given the call is extended.

[_Jason Bourne]

The point is people like Harmony are obeying rules of a cult, listening to the advice of Bishops who are chosen based on loyalty to the organization more than anything else. Her loyalty is not about having to believe in a God it's about obedience to a organization which has created their own rules and practices. So she wears garments she doesn't want to because to not do so would bother her husband a loyal obedient member. Her wearing of garments when she doesn't want is an indication which gives me reason to think she lacks high personal integrity to follow through on what's best for her, what makes sense, what's right and wrong. She obviously is quite obedient in appearance in real life, but on here likes to complain.

Amazing. Simply amazing. The point is you really don't know what the hell you are talking about when it comes to the LDS Church, selection of leaders and the reasons people make the choices they make. It is a complex issue for Harmony and others who makes choices that really are outside your infinite realm of experience and reasoning. You have no frame of reference here at all yet you question Harmony's integrity? You know nothing about the culture and life of a believer in the LDS church how may discover certain things about their belief's yet chose to modify their own inner belief system for numerous reasons yet still choose to participate. Since you lack experience in things of faith you really are not qualifies whatsoever to opine on this. To do so you have to have experiences it. Till than your sweeping conclusions meaningless really.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Marg, your dogmatism is in inverse proportion to your knowledge.

That's always been your M.O.

That's why I think interacting with you is a waste of time.

[_harmony]

From the last few pages of this thread we can learn many things:

1. marg will go to any length, including quoting scripture, to take Daniel's place as the Biggest Stick with a Metal Point On It on this board. (Daniel, please give marg the trophy you've been displaying all these years. She's surpassed you.)

2. marg will convolute any argument in order to convict harmony of unnamed crimes against humanity, including being too stupid to leave an organization that marg, the Ultimate Label Giver, has labeled a cult.

3. Jason has once again shown his true colors as a gentleman and a Saint by putting marg in her real place, as an unfortunate slightly irrational woman with no understanding of her current subject and no desire to learn.

4. Daniel... bless his heart...

5. Jersey has once again set down Nehor with some acute observations.

6. Ray... gotta love him.

[_marg]

4. Daniel... bless his heart...

I know you've said he must love you, but it appears to be the other way around. Some people are easily impressed.

Harmony the LDS church is a choice you have made. And any problems you personally have as a result of it, are yours. You are responsible for your decisions, the church and those within are not responsible to please you or to change for you.

It does appear to me that you complain on here but in real life I think you are quite submissive.

[_marg]

So Jason what do you think about Lifton's 8 conditions of thought reform? Do you see any connection with practices of the Church and those 8 conditions? Do you see it necessary or unnecessary that Bishops question individuals about their sex lives?..about intimate details of their lives generally? Do you think Bishops have adequate training to counsel people? Do you think that involving themselves in the personal lives in particular sex lives of members might be a technique by the church to destroy personal boundaries and serve to exert power and control over vulnerable members? What do you think is the purpose of having members who reach a certain level within the organization wear special underwear?


from http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cultinfo.html

Eight Conditions of Thought Reform

as presented in
Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of "Brainwashing" in China, by Robert Jay Lifton, M.D.; W. W. Norton & Co., Inc., 1963.

One condition

The Cult of Confession:

Closely related to the demand for absolute purity is an obsession with personal confession. Confession is carried beyond its ordinary religious, legal, and therapeutic expressions to the point of becoming a cult in itself. (Page 425.)
Public confessional periods are used to get members to verbalize and discuss their innermost fears and anxieties as well as past imperfections.

The environment demands that personal boundaries are destroyed and that every thought, feeling, or action that does not conform with the group's rules be confessed.

Members have little or no privacy, physically or mentally.

[_The Nehor]

Nothing like two old women beating the crap out of each other to provide comic relief.

Nehor,

I understand how much you value your position as resident Jack in the Box of this board however, might I point out to you that if gender and age related comments are the best you've got, you might wanna work on your catalog of non-constructive comments. I've known both of these "old women" for years and on their worst day, both are more intellectually vibrant than you on what you might consider your best.

It does not escape my attention that you made no mention of the "old guy" in these exchanges and why is that, eh?

I was going to say 'cat fight' but I thought that might be more offensive.

[_marg]

Liz, you'll have to fix something. I responded to your post but ended up writing on your actual post, so the moderating functions are still working in my name.

Anyhow I ended up deleting your post.

This is my reply to your question about my connection to Mormonism:


On the internet someone I came across, I learned was Mormon, a TBM actually, to the extreme. The beliefs that Mormons had shocked me. There was something about that person, that I liked. I appreciated they were extremely intelligent and I couldn't understand how someone so intelligent could be so obviously brainwashed. They had generally high critical thinking skills. I believe the internet being new to them, opened their mind to different perspectives and to information they were unaware of with regards to history of Mormonism. They are no longer Mormon. That's not my doing, in my opinion it was their exposure to a world they previously had no interaction with, and information they were unaware of and the process out of the church evolved. As I involved myself on the internet I became aware of how serious religion was to people's lives and indirectly to my own. So it was a Mormon first who made me appreciate how an intelligent mind can be manipulated and controlled. Ever since, religion in general from the big picture perspective with a sub focus on Mormonism which I use as an example of religion generally and critical thinking as it applies to religion has been an interest.

[_Jason Bourne]

Marg,

I will answer your questions but will also note that this is typical of your style. You change the target. I noted that you really no squat about the LDS Church, its culture, processes and what it means too be LDS or really a person of faith at all. When you have more knowledge about this other than what you seem to have gleaned on message boards that debate things LDS then perhaps your criticisms will have meaning. Right now they have little because you have no frame of reference.

So Jason what do you think about Lifton's 8 conditions of thought reform?

I think the LDS Church has some light elements of those conditions as do most religious organizations to varying degrees. Many religions have stronger elements that are there listed early in their development and over time they out grow much of those conditions.

Do you see any connection with practices of the Church and those 8 conditions?

To a certain extent there are some of those 8 conditions.

Do you see it necessary or unnecessary that Bishops question individuals about their sex lives?

Why do you think bishops question individuals about their sex lives? Can you give me some real life examples? I know what bishops do and do not do for the most part and I see no detailed questioning by most bishops. I understand the reasoning behind this and know it has its roots in the idea of repentance and confession being part of this. It is not a unique LDS practice at all but common in Christianity.

..about intimate details of their lives generally?

Do you have examples of this. Do you have experience with this? Do you really know what you are talking about? Because this has generally not been my experience at all.

Do you think Bishops have adequate training to counsel people?

I think they have adequate training to counsel people in things that relate to their spiritual life, repentance, salvation as far as it is concerned in the LDS realm of things. I think they are no adequately trained to be therapist and most bishops will recognize that and send the person needing help to a professional.

Do you think that involving themselves in the personal lives in particular sex lives of members might be a technique by the church to destroy personal boundaries and serve to exert power and control over vulnerable members?

Bishop do not get involved in personal lives unless the person is making a confession in that area of their life. And then most bishops keep it general and avoid specifics and are even taught to do so. I do not think anyone has planned it in such a way to be a malicios attempt to exert power and control. But that certainly can be a result.

What do you think is the purpose of having members who reach a certain level within the organization wear special underwear?

Temple garments are to remind members of the covenants they make in the temple and to call their mind up to the spiritual aspect of that part of their lives.

The Cult of Confession:

Closely related to the demand for absolute purity is an obsession with personal confession. Confession is carried beyond its ordinary religious, legal, and therapeutic expressions to the point of becoming a cult in itself. (Page 425.)
Public confessional periods are used to get members to verbalize and discuss their innermost fears and anxieties as well as past imperfections.

The environment demands that personal boundaries are destroyed and that every thought, feeling, or action that does not conform with the group's rules be confessed.

Members have little or no privacy, physically or mentally.

Based on my personal experience that does not describe the confessional experience in the LDS Church. When you have actually observed it then you will realize how silly it is to relate the above to it. As you have no experience with it we will let you plead ignorance.