The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

[_maklelan]

It is illogical due to the context of her statement. She was comparing the plates to thick paper in a book.

And how does this preclude the idea that the rustling is the plates moving laterally? Thick paper in a book can move laterally.

I really don't understand why you don't seem able to grasp this.

Don't patronize me.

[_beastie]

And how does this preclude the idea that the rustling is the plates moving laterally? Thick paper in a book can move laterally.

Again. When English speakers talk about thumbing the pages of a book - and she would be thumbing it from the sides due to it being covered up - they're talking about flipping pages quickly. That entails the pages slightly folding back to "thumb" the pages. They're not talking about sliding the pages against one another.

Don't patronize me.

That statement was not patronizing. It was an expression of bewilderment.

[_maklelan]

Again. When English speakers talk about thumbing the pages of a book - and she would be thumbing it from the sides due to it being covered up - they're talking about flipping pages quickly.

Thumbing through the pages of a buck is flipping pages. "Thumbing the pages" could mean anything.

That entails the pages slightly folding back to "thumb" the pages. They're not talking about sliding the pages against one another.

You can't say that with any certainty at all. You're simply retrojecting into the history your own presumptions about what "thumbing" the pages of a book means.

That statement was not patronizing. It was an expression of bewilderment.

Then you're not paying any attention. I'm not some stupid hillbilly who can't read so good. Don't presume I don't understand your argument just because I disagree.

[_beastie]

Thumbing through the pages of a buck is flipping pages. "Thumbing the pages" could mean anything.

You can't say that with any certainty at all. You're simply retrojecting into the history your own presumptions about what "thumbing" the pages of a book means.

The plates were covered up. She would have had limited access to the pages. What do you imagine she was doing other than flipping the edges of the pages?

She said the pages had the thickness of thick paper. Paper - even thick paper - can certainly be flipped in this manner.

I never said or insinuated that you were a dumb hillbilly. If you understand my argument, but simply disagree with it, then stop asking me to explain it over and over.

Once again, here is her statement:

Emma Smith Bidamon Interview with Joseph Smith III, February 1879 p 539

The plates often lay on the table without any attempt at con=cealment, wrapped in a small linen <table> cloth, which I had given him to fold them in. I have felt of the plates, as they lay on the table, tracing their outline [p. 8] and shape. They seemed to be pliable like st thick paper, and would rustle <with a mettalic sound> when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book.

Joseph Smith III to Mrs. E. Horton, 7 March 1900

“My mother [Emma Smith] told me that she saw the plates in the sack, for they lay on a small table in their living room in their cabin on her father’s farm, and she would lift and move them when she swept and dusted the room and furniture. She even thumbed the leaves as one does the leaves of a book, and they rustled with a metalic sound.

"thumb the edges of a book" "thick paper" "thumbed the leaves"

Clearly she's talking about a sound the plates made when she "thumbed" the edges, as one thumbs the edges of a book. How does that turn into a lateral movement, particularly with limited access to the plates?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Hello Everyone,

I suppose, yet another tactic Mormon apologists use is either to redefine a word or, when countered effectively claim they were using an obscure definition of the word. The above discussion illustrates this perfectly. In the Mormon apologist's world "thumbing" the plates meant Mrs. Smith was "sliding" the plates around. Aside from the presumed difficulty of sliding bound plates against one another, it defies all reason and logic to say she was thumbing the plates when, according to Mr. Maklelan, she was not thumbing the plates.

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

[_Paul Osborne]

Then you're not paying any attention. I'm not some stupid hillbilly who can't read so good.

Maybe it would help if you got a different avatar. Just look how smart the good doctors on the board look! And Dr. Peterson is the best looking of the bunch.



PaulO

[_MAsh]

"thumb the edges of a book" "thick paper" "thumbed the leaves"

Clearly she's talking about a sound the plates made when she "thumbed" the edges, as one thumbs the edges of a book. How does that turn into a lateral movement, particularly with limited access to the plates?

Right up front I'm going to say that this will be a drive-by posting (I've got a lot of DVDs to dub & finish for the FAIR Conference in a few days).

Where I work we do a fair about of "engraving" on small brass plates to stick on clocks (for anniversary gifts, retirement gifts, etc.).

I have no idea if the metal we use is real brass, partial brass, or something else. But I know that they are some sort of metal.

We "engrave" on the metal pieces with a tool that scratches the surface. It doesn't go very deep-- it doesn't need to go deep to read the engravings.

I haven't measured the thickness (maybe some day at work I will), but they are fairly thick. Thicker than construction paper but thinner than cardboard. They might be described as being like thick paper (but most people would think they might be a little thicker than the typical thick paper of our day).

I am absolutely positive that these metal pieces could be quite a bit thinner & still be engraved upon without meeting engravings on the other side.

Our "brass" metal pieces come in larger sheets (just guessing, some of the bigger pieces we have could measure 8x10 or larger). They are not very pliable. You can bend a bit of curve in a large piece but smaller pieces would require some real strength or pliers.

We have a paper cutter that we use to cut the pieces into smaller segments for putting on the clocks.

I've always noticed that these "plates" make a metalic rustling sound whenever you touch them. While they are too firm to bend like paper, it's very easy to "thumb" through the top layers of a stack of these plates (letting each individual plate fall on the lower plate as your thumb gradually raises the upper plates).

I think anyone who has worked with this engraving "brass" (even those who had never heard of the Book of Mormon arguments in this thread) could easily and naturally decribe them in the same manner desribed by Emma. You can thumb the (slightly thicker than) thick paper-like metal plates and when doing so, they make a metallic rustling sound.

Sorry Beastie, but this argument is really grasping at straws. Even if you believed that the plates were really made of tin, they could be thumbed and would make the rustling sound.

Mike Ash

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Hello,

Here is a picture taken at the Museum of Church History and Art, Salt Lake City *edit: My apologies. The image was not mapping very well. Here is another:



You can go to Wikipedia to view the image in a higher resolution. Clearly, what you are describing and what this image shows is at odds. Ms. Beastie is simply showing you that Emma's experience was fallacious.

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

[_MAsh]

Hello,
Clearly, what you are describing and what this image shows is at odds. Ms. Beastie is simply showing you that Emma's experience was fallacious.

If you were to thumb the top of this stack, they would rustle.

Mike Ash

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Sir,

They would not rustle.

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=rustle

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me