Mormonism is not "Christianity"

[_consiglieri]

By using the term CHRISTIAN heresy, one is recognizing that it is a Christian sect. But the term heresy recognizes the Nicean tradition of mainstream Christianity.

My understanding is that modern New Testament scholars tend to eschew the term "heresy" when discussing early dissenting forms of Christianity in favor of the less baggage laden "heterodox."


A heterodox, a heterodox,
A most ingenious heterodox!
We've quips and quibbles heard in flocks,
But none to match this heterodox.

All the Best!

--Sullivanlieri

[_beastie]

By using the term CHRISTIAN heresy, one is recognizing that it is a Christian sect. But the term heresy recognizes the Nicean tradition of mainstream Christianity.

My understanding is that modern New Testament scholars tend to eschew the term "heresy" when discussing early dissenting forms of Christianity in favor of the less baggage laden "heterodox."


A heterodox, a heterodox,
A most ingenious heterodox!
We've quips and quibbles heard in flocks,
But none to match this heterodox.

All the Best!

--Sullivanlieri

That would work for me. I'm sure others will disagree.

Now is there a less baggage laden term for apostasy? ;)

[_Jason Bourne]

Because I've given it several times. Any religion that teaches contrary to essential Christian doctrine is not a Christian religion. For me: Trinity (Deity of Christ within the Trinity),

Mormons believe in a trinity just not the one from the Nicean and other creeds. They believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost and that all three are God and one-as I have noted over and over-one in might,mind, power, glory and purpose but not substance. They are individuals but are one in that they divinely indwell one another.

Have you missed me making that point?

If you would like you can dispute it from Mormon sources.

Do all the Christian denominations today believe in the same historical trinity? Are the differing views? Is a social trinitarian a Christian?

total depravity.

Mormons do not believe this if you mean it in the way the TULIP ideas from Calvinism do. Nor do many other Christian sects. But Mormons do believe man is fallen and carnal by nature and have to be redeemed by the blood of Christ. This is taught all through the Book of Mormon.

It's one thing to believe these things yet not be able to adequately understand them. It is quite another to deny them, as Mormonism does.

Perhaps not as much as you think. See above.

I would add that the picture on Christ's atoning death still seems a bit muddled.

Oh really? How so. How about some specifics rather than your typical generalizations.

Contrast that with RCC's position, but there really is no comparison. And, Mormon practice may not align terribly well with its doctrinal stance, which, at a minimum, should give one pause. At a maximum could be exclusionary.

Again more specifics would be helpful.

[_Jason Bourne]

Irrelevant as the analogy is not comparable.

Ok take it to Mammals then. I think it is valid. Or use primates.


.

I was simply stating what it means to claim to be a restoration. Other than the 19th century rhetoric that you quote below I think it is pretty clear the the LDS Church always considered itself to be a Christian denomination and also considered the rest of the Christian denominations Christian albeit lacking total truth. The dichotomy you set forth above is not one adopted in totality by the LDS Church.

I don't really care if it is adopted by the totality of the LDS church.

So?

The majority of male Mormons probably watch porn, does that mean that the LDS church officially allows porn viewing?

Really? News to me. And a bad analogy too.

The highest leaders and the scriptures of the church make it clear that all other so-called Christian churches aren't, and that only the LDS church has any claim to be the true church of Christ. Thus, the dichotomy exists as per Mormon scripture, sorry if you find JSH to be an inconvenience.

Really? Other than the 19th century rhetoric find me an LDS leader that says Baptists or Catholics are not a Christian denomination.

And, I think you would be surprised as to how many Mormons actually do believe in the dichotomy.

I am sure many Mormons view other Christian faith as lacking authority and teachings to save one in God's highest glory. I am certain few would argue that the Catholic or some other established Christian denomination is not Christian.

It's hard for New Order Mormons to remember sometimes what more orthodox Mormons actually think.

Really? And you can read my mind?

I got burned on this myself just a few weeks ago. I was talking about a book on the historical Jesus with my brother-in-law in the presence of my mother and sister. They all know I am not a Mormon anymore.

Keep in mind this was a purely scholarly book on the historical Jesus by Paula Fredricksen (who is a Jew). My mother and sister got really pissed and asked me to stop talking about it. My sister stormed out of the room when I did not stop, with my mother following behind. I found out later why they were pissed, it's because I no longer believe in the same Jesus as they do, their words, not mine. It was just a big wake up call for me. As much as New Order Mormons and liberal Mormons like to pretend otherwise, there is a vast gulf between Christianity and Mormons, and that gulf is set up and maintained to a large degree by Mormons.

Meaning Mormons do believe in things that are different about His nature. All really which seems open for debate because the Bible is no clear on this point really.

Look, I would LOVE for this gulf to go away. It would make my life a lot easier. But I can't pretend that "we're all Christians" when everything Mormons do says I'm not. I'm sorry it's really hard to sing cumbaya and pretend like we're all on the same team.

The bottom line is that I really don't have much of a problem when Mormons claim they are Christians. It's the corrollary of that statement, that I most certainly am not a Christian (at least not one that counts), that really pisses me off.

I have a problem with Mormons saying you are not Christian as well.

[_Jason Bourne]

I admit I stole the idea from you!

I think Christian heresy fits, as well.

I know that it has negative connotations, but LDS may be asking for a bit much for mainstreamers to categorize them in a neutral or positive way when LDS themselves say that mainstreamers are in a state of apostasy. I don't think heresy is any more negative than apostasy.

Heresy is a good idea because it fits, historically speaking, how the term has been used. If folks click on the ink I provided they'll see that these are groups that do accept Jesus as Savior, by and large, but have rejected the Nicean interpretation of the godhead. That describes Mormonism quite well, in my view.

By using the term CHRISTIAN heresy, one is recognizing that it is a Christian sect. But the term heresy recognizes the Nicean tradition of mainstream Christianity.

From an Orthodox Christian view it is a heresy and a Christian heresy. Much like the proto-orthodox early Christian group viewed adotionists or Doecists. These groups were certainly Christian and competing with what became Orthodox which group then declared other losing groups heretic. Had one of those other groups wan the early debates we would be having a different conversation. Indeed all of western civilization may look different.

[_Aristotle Smith]

Jason,

I used the think we got on pretty well on the message boards, now you seem really eager to score points on me. When did I crap in your corn flakes and how can I make it better?

[_Jason Bourne]

A,

You didn't. I got a bit too strident. My bad. Sorry about that.

[_jon]

Is Mormonism the only true, divinely authorised form of Christianity on the earth today?

[_Jason Bourne]

By the way I will be away for at least till late tomorrow or Sunday. I am heading out of town to do a big bike race. Just so you know I am not abandoning this thread.

[_Aristotle Smith]

A,

You didn't. I got a bit too strident. My bad. Sorry about that.

Fair enough, I can do that too at times.