Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

[_Darth J]

Oh come on! Roger's Rangers from the French and Indian war?!?!? Come on Dan....

Nobody in New York would have heard of Roger's Rangers. And what would this prove about guerrilla tactics, anyway? If I recall correctly, Robert Rogers never really wrote anything down.

This is all just preposterous nonsense. There is no way a person in Joseph Smith's time and location could have come up with any ideas about guerrilla tactics.

[_ludwigm]

Oh come on! Roger's Rangers from the French and Indian war?!?!?

Nobody in New York would have heard of Roger's Rangers. [/url]

"Északnyugati átjáró"
Northwest Passage of Kenneth Roberts.

I have the book in Hungarian.

[_stemelbow]

http://www.wave.net/upg/gate/

The leader of Heaven's Gate had a photo of Hale Bopp with a trailing white dot. The trailing dot was the spaceship of one of the Heaven's Gate leaders from several years prior who had moved to the next level after fighting cancer. Now, Stem, one might conclude without that photo that Hale Bopp approached not alone, but with that photo, the evidence mounts that much more. That photo was/is a piece of data. It is evidence positive for the case that Hale Bopp traveled with an intelligent, space-faring companion. It isn't proof necessarily, but it is a piece of evidence in favor of the Heaven's Gate case and should be acknowledged as such.

That comes off as pretty silly. Joseph Smith' claim of having metallic plates is not near a comparison to this. The question is did Joseph Smith have metallic plates that appeared ancient with writings on them? DJ says yes. he simply doesn't realize the reason he's forced to say yes, is because, in part, the evidence that is supplied by the testimony of the 8.

See ya.

[Guest]

That comes off as pretty silly. Joseph Smith' claim of having metallic plates is not near a comparison to this. The question is did Joseph Smith have metallic plates that appeared ancient with writings on them? DJ says yes. he simply doesn't realize the reason he's forced to say yes, is because, in part, the evidence that is supplied by the testimony of the 8.

See ya.

Explain it, stem. Your "nuhuh" responses are inadequate. You rarely offer anything resembling an argument until we prod you to do so.

So, are you registered at Mormon Voices perchance? Is this board an assignment you have taken on?

Do you work for the LDS Church?

I'm just asking, because it almost feels like you are a bad union employee punching the clock or a ward member grudgingly fulfilling an unwanted calling here. Such is the empty, repetitive nature of most of your responses.

[_SteelHead]

http://www.wave.net/upg/gate/

The leader of Heaven's Gate had a photo of Hale Bopp with a trailing white dot. The trailing dot was the spaceship of one of the Heaven's Gate leaders from several years prior who had moved to the next level after fighting cancer. Now, Stem, one might conclude without that photo that Hale Bopp approached not alone, but with that photo, the evidence mounts that much more. That photo was/is a piece of data. It is evidence positive for the case that Hale Bopp traveled with an intelligent, space-faring companion. It isn't proof necessarily, but it is a piece of evidence in favor of the Heaven's Gate case and should be acknowledged as such.

That comes off as pretty silly. Joseph Smith' claim of having metallic plates is not near a comparison to this. The question is did Joseph Smith have metallic plates that appeared ancient with writings on them? DJ says yes. he simply doesn't realize the reason he's forced to say yes, is because, in part, the evidence that is supplied by the testimony of the 8.

See ya.

Sorry stem but it is exactly the same kind of comparison. Both are offering physical proof of a conclusion that they are not qualified to make.

[_Yoda]

That comes off as pretty silly. Joseph Smith' claim of having metallic plates is not near a comparison to this. The question is did Joseph Smith have metallic plates that appeared ancient with writings on them? DJ says yes. he simply doesn't realize the reason he's forced to say yes, is because, in part, the evidence that is supplied by the testimony of the 8.

See ya.

Explain it, stem. Your "nuhuh" responses are inadequate. You rarely offer anything resembling an argument until we prod you to do so.

So, are you registered at Mormon Voices perchance? Is this board an assignment you have taken on?

Do you work for the LDS Church?

I'm just asking, because it almost feels like you are a bad union employee punching the clock or a ward member grudgingly fulfilling an unwanted calling here. Such is the empty, repetitive nature of most of your responses.

Hmmm...I have never really viewed Stem as someone who has an agenda. I suppose it is possible, though I honestly think unlikely. The sense I get is that he is just a "regular guy" who belongs to the Church. Actually, he and I have similar views which are quite NOM'ish on some LDS doctrine and policy.

[_stemelbow]

Explain it, stem.

I just explained it. The issue here seems to be whether there is evidence for any of Joseph Smith' claims. DJ used the example of the 8 witnesses as a means to say it's not really evidence of any of Joseph Smith' claims. I say, Joseph Smith claimed to ahve had metallic plates that appeared ancient and had writings on them. The testimony of the 8 confirm that. DJ agrees that Joseph Smith probably had some sort of plates. Here, we can see, there is evidence of a claim by Joseph Smith.

Your "nuhuh" responses are inadequate. You rarely offer anything resembling an argument until we prod you to do so.

To be truthful I don't' think many are very serious here at all. They don't pose pertinent arguments, much like that Gadianton guy's post just demonstrated. I know your knee jerk reaction is to complain about my posts, but you don't seem to realize that my post was in response to an absurd post--that didn't pertain to anything I've been saying. I know he's your bud, so whatever.

So, are you registered at Mormon Voices perchance? Is this board an assignment you have taken on?

Do you work for the LDS Church?

I'm just asking, because it almost feels like you are a bad union employee punching the clock or a ward member grudgingly fulfilling an unwanted calling here. Such is the empty, repetitive, nature of most of your responses.

Yes, I often give out what I get in return. The empty, repetitive nature of many of the responses here.

Thanks for noticing, though. I wish I was a better.

[_Yoda]

The testimony of the Eight (among other evidence, of course) is evidence that Joseph Smith was a real person who lived. It is evidence that Palmyra, NY was a real place in the 19th Century.

In and of themselves these pieces of data do not demonstrate that the Book of Mormon is an ancient record, perhaps.

But it's a start, as they say.

Because of the testimony of the Eight (among other evidence, of course) even an avowed critic like DJ is forced to accept that Joseph Smith was a real person who lived.

I used to joke with my friends about my possible NOM testimony, wondering whether anyone would catch on:

"I would like to stand up and bear my testimony that I know, with every fiber of my being, that Joseph Smith brought forth the Book of Mormon, that he founded the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and that president Monson truly stands at the head of this Church today," etc.

I always wondered what kind of response that "testimony" would get.

I will bet you money that you would have the folks in the Ward come up to you afterward telling you how moving your testimony was. They would not even catch on to what you were saying. It would translate into their brain as "Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God" rather than your subtle point here about Joseph Smith "bringing forth the Book of Mormon". To an untrained ear, it would simply be accepted.

[_Kishkumen]

Hmmm...I have never really viewed Stem as someone who has an agenda. I suppose it is possible, though I honestly think unlikely. The sense I get is that he is just a "regular guy" who belongs to the Church. Actually, he and I have similar views which are quite NOM'ish on some LDS doctrine and policy.

I disagree. Stem may be "just a regular guy," but his pattern of engagement is the antithesis of thoughtful reading or useful commentary. It seems calculated to scuttle anything like an actual conversation with feigned stupidity and an avalanche of empty comments.

Still, I am glad you have connected with him on some level. I don't hate the guy; I'm just tired of stupid responses from a person who clearly could do better but chooses not to. I think that is evidence of an agenda.

[_stemelbow]

Sorry stem but it is exactly the same kind of comparison. Both are offering physical proof of a conclusion that they are not qualified to make.

Let's see.

Says Gadianton: "The leader of Heaven's Gate had a photo of Hale Bopp with a trailing white dot. The trailing dot was the spaceship of one of the Heaven's Gate leaders from several years prior who had moved to the next level after fighting cancer. Now, Stem, one might conclude without that photo that Hale Bopp approached not alone, but with that photo, the evidence mounts that much more. That photo was/is a piece of data. It is evidence positive for the case that Hale Bopp traveled with an intelligent, space-faring companion. It isn't proof necessarily, but it is a piece of evidence in favor of the Heaven's Gate case and should be acknowledged as such."

Here the conclusion he reaches by saying the leader had a photo is untenable.

Here is the conclusion I draw from the 8 witness testimony:

They confirm that Joseph Smith' story of having metallic plates that appear ancient and have writings on them.

The comparison is not near close to what I've been saying, in my estimation. But to each his own.