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_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

And here is more from the Wiki site:

Although participants in the massacre boasted of their attrocities for years, none of the Missourians were ever brought to trial for their part in the massacre,[7] and the Latter Day Saints efforts at receiving justice in the Missouri courts were in vain. Several of the Mormon participants in the Mountain Meadows Massacre cited vengeance for the injustice of Haun's Mill as key among their motives.

Today, the grounds of the massacre are maintained as a historic site by the Community of Christ church. The church is also conducting ongoing archaeological research to identify the former buildings and grounds of the Haun's Mill settlement.


But the way you and others portray this you'd think this was just an outright "terrorist" massacre. If MMM was some form of vengeance for Haun's Mill it is not in accordance with gospel principles. But these were the tensions that existed at the time.
_beastie
_Emeritus
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Post by _beastie »

MMM was a massacre, Ray, and it was an act of domestic terrorism. It's not hyperbole to use those terms.

And yes, US school children hear about the persecution of the Mormons and how they were driven out west here in the US. I don't remember learning about Haun's Mill in particular, which was also a massacre and an act of terrorism, but not on the same scale as MMM, but we do learn about the persecution of Mormons in the US. And, of course, the church talks quite a bit about that, but rarely about MMM.

This is all our history, Ray. US history. Not your history. US history. Just like the holocaust is part of German history. Sometimes we actually talk about these things for reasons other than to embarrass and persecute groups.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

Oh, and the accusation that the victims of MMM bragged about killing Joseph is total BS.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Mister Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 5604
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:13 pm

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Here are some letters written by TBMs, which you can read at RfM. I wonder how Ray feels about this stuff:

I was shocked and extremely ticked off when I read a news article about this terrible web site, and wanted to express my opinion on you frauds. It is amaizing to me at how Satan has gotten hold upon your hearts, and turned you into the hard harted, unbelieving people that you are. Do you actually think what you are doing is right? . . . All that crap you wrote about his First Vision not being true is a total manipulation and disgusts me. Why would someone as yourselves spend so much time trying to get people to disbelieve in the church? What is the point. All you are accomplishing is bringing more people down to hell with you. People like you are just as bad as Hitler himself, and I look forward to the Great Judgment Day when you realize your faults.
(emphasis added)

Only a completely insecure idiot would devote as much
time as you to such negativity. I don't need to read all the crap
you're putting out there, because I know it's not true. First of all,
where did you get your facts? From some other hateful moran? Your
going to be judged for your actions. I love God for all he's done for
me, and he brought me to the Mormon church. You're just like all the
rest of the mormon-bashers. You see how happy we are, so you're jealous
and have to do all you can to knock us down. Secure people live and let
live, but I guess you wouldn't know anything about that, because you
hate yourself. Why don't you shut up, and quit doing the devil's work.
You worthless piece of garbage.
(emph. added)

I recently discovered your page. Actually i saw it as i was researching
for injustice due to religious conviction. your page fit that search
quite well. most people do not know much about Mormonism. your page
not only does not fully explain Mormonism but it puts it down and
degrades it in a such a way that people that know nothing about
Mormonism begin to despise as the writers of this page do without being
allowed a correct idea of it. This page reminds me of something Nazi
Germany would say of the jews.
(emphasis added)

If you were to send me hard proof that what you say is true, not some link
to a site created by your drinking buddy Bubba, then I would be willing to
give your statements some thought. Without proof you are just a pathetic
loser
trying desperately to gain power in a way which deprives people of
possible enlightenment.
(emph. added)

. Could it be that you are so scared and paranoid of the truth that you must develop this website for your own insecurities? Satan's armies truly are working hard in these, the last days. I must give my deepest sympathies for you and those like you when the final judgement rains upon you and your followers. May your judgement be swift and fair.
(bold added)

If you dare i would love a response to this letter if not i know that you are a dead person in the sight of God!!!!!!!
(bold added)

You will be punished for creating such a webpage. it is a joke. It is based on those breaking the law of god and rebelling agaisnt him. they write these things because they are scared. Exmormons are excommunicated Mormons. As in they broke a severe law of god. They write these stories so they can make themselves think it is not true, when they actually are true. E-mail me if you dare. P.S. you will probably be sued or tried for racism against Mormons.


Hello, as you can see, my name is N... R.... I am a missionary for the church currently serving with Elder Ballard in the England London South mission. There are a few questions I would like to ask first. Then I'll show you how stupid you really are.

1. Do you live the law of Chastity?
If not, how do you claim to get knowledge from God.
2. Do you live the word of wisdom?
If not, you're just a lazy bastard who can't control yourself.
3. Do you study the scriptures?
Did you know you're gullable.
4. Do you attend a church now.
Tell me, how is the great and abominable whore doing?
5. Do you have a problem with honesty?
6. How far in debt are you?
7. Are you still lonely, you loner!


Eric you SUCK!!!!

I am an Elder in the Church. I am going to go on a mission for the church and I hope that I end up on your doorstep so that I may take the opportunity to kick you in the Butt. You are a backstabbing slimy son of perdition. May you and all your followers rot in HELL (particularly in perdition's FLAME). The trouble with you is that you have to high of an opinion of your own mind. You know absolutely nothing. Do you seriously beleve that even SATAN would waist his precious time trying to capture your worthless soul? You are the epitomy of stupidity. You might try trying to back up some of your claims with fact. Or you might try backing up over your self!!!

I seriously hope that you never acctually had a testimony of the church. Because if you ever acctually knew that it was true you will be cast into outer darkness with the other sons of perdition.

I sign off wishing you early transmission failure on the express way at abour 4:30 P.M. Also may the flees of a thousand camels infest your armpits!!

P.S.
YOU SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you have the balls to post this message kindly omit the e-mail address. But please send back saying you posted it.
Thank you for your time
Good evening.


One thing that I find interesting is how often the authors of these letters (many of whom appear to be teenagers) utilize the very same argument as Ray. Is this a case of "from the mouths of babes"? Or is this a case of Ray using a juvenile argument? You be the judge!
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

beastie wrote:This is all our history, Ray. US history. Not your history. US history. Just like the holocaust is part of German history. Sometimes we actually talk about these things for reasons other than to embarrass and persecute groups.


And Americans obviously have a different "take" on that history. Whether it be the MMM, the Holocaust, or Haun's Mill, everyone should have an interest in knowing what happened in the past. However, I am still questioning the motives of the movie-makers. Is this supposed to "educate" us? About what? Voight has already explained himself. This is not a "history lesson", this is a warning about the "dangers of religious fundamentalism". This is Hollywood! And it is going to influence the thinking of people one way or another.

Australians have a very different take on Ned Kelly. Some believe he was a common criminal, thief and outlaw. Others believe he and his brothers were acting in self-defense and for how they were treated by the law, when they killed several police officers at Stringybark Creek. To this day there is dispute about who was really at fault and who started it. Movies have sensationalised this, and you cannot get history lessons from movies. In most Ned Kelly movies one thing is clear: The police are the "bad guys", and Ned is the "good guy". This has shaped public opinion, perhaps more than the history books. I am waiting to see how September Dawn will shape public opinion.

And FYI, there are endless debates and arguments about Aboriginal genocide in Tasmania, and the original white settlers of Australia have been portrayed by some as mass murderers who wiped out most of the Aborigines. One historian described this as the "black armband view of history", which the Prime Minister himself has said he doesn't want taught in the public education system because it's an unbalanced view, and unfair to most Australians today.

What some seem to be doing with MMM is using THIS to "teach" a modern lesson about "religious fundamentalism", and this is like using the first settlers of Australia and portraying them as mass murderers and "terrorists" and there must be something intrinsically wrong with the "white man". You need a modern perspective. The past is the past. Sure there were serious wrongs done, but this country is very, very different to what it was in 1788, just like the LDS Church is very different to what it was in 1857. And what galls me is that the movie-makers of September Dawn are already saying that this film will tell "the truth", on May 4. Maybe Hollywood hyperbole, but how many will believe it?
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Mister Scratch wrote:Here are some letters written by TBMs, which you can read at RfM. I wonder how Ray feels about this stuff:

I was shocked and extremely ticked off when I read a news article about this terrible web site, and wanted to express my opinion on you frauds. It is amaizing to me at how Satan has gotten hold upon your hearts, and turned you into the hard harted, unbelieving people that you are. Do you actually think what you are doing is right? . . . All that crap you wrote about his First Vision not being true is a total manipulation and disgusts me. Why would someone as yourselves spend so much time trying to get people to disbelieve in the church? What is the point. All you are accomplishing is bringing more people down to hell with you. People like you are just as bad as Hitler himself, and I look forward to the Great Judgment Day when you realize your faults.
(emphasis added)

Only a completely insecure idiot would devote as much
time as you to such negativity. I don't need to read all the crap
you're putting out there, because I know it's not true. First of all,
where did you get your facts? From some other hateful moran? Your
going to be judged for your actions. I love God for all he's done for
me, and he brought me to the Mormon church. You're just like all the
rest of the mormon-bashers. You see how happy we are, so you're jealous
and have to do all you can to knock us down. Secure people live and let
live, but I guess you wouldn't know anything about that, because you
hate yourself. Why don't you shut up, and quit doing the devil's work.
You worthless piece of garbage.
(emph. added)

I recently discovered your page. Actually I saw it as I was researching
for injustice due to religious conviction. your page fit that search
quite well. most people do not know much about Mormonism. your page
not only does not fully explain Mormonism but it puts it down and
degrades it in a such a way that people that know nothing about
Mormonism begin to despise as the writers of this page do without being
allowed a correct idea of it. This page reminds me of something Nazi
Germany would say of the jews.
(emphasis added)

If you were to send me hard proof that what you say is true, not some link
to a site created by your drinking buddy Bubba, then I would be willing to
give your statements some thought. Without proof you are just a pathetic
loser
trying desperately to gain power in a way which deprives people of
possible enlightenment.
(emph. added)

. Could it be that you are so scared and paranoid of the truth that you must develop this website for your own insecurities? Satan's armies truly are working hard in these, the last days. I must give my deepest sympathies for you and those like you when the final judgement rains upon you and your followers. May your judgement be swift and fair.
(bold added)

If you dare I would love a response to this letter if not I know that you are a dead person in the sight of God!!!!!!!
(bold added)

You will be punished for creating such a webpage. it is a joke. It is based on those breaking the law of god and rebelling agaisnt him. they write these things because they are scared. Exmormons are excommunicated Mormons. As in they broke a severe law of god. They write these stories so they can make themselves think it is not true, when they actually are true. E-mail me if you dare. P.S. you will probably be sued or tried for racism against Mormons.


Hello, as you can see, my name is N... R.... I am a missionary for the church currently serving with Elder Ballard in the England London South mission. There are a few questions I would like to ask first. Then I'll show you how stupid you really are.

1. Do you live the law of Chastity?
If not, how do you claim to get knowledge from God.
2. Do you live the word of wisdom?
If not, you're just a lazy bastard who can't control yourself.
3. Do you study the scriptures?
Did you know you're gullable.
4. Do you attend a church now.
Tell me, how is the great and abominable whore doing?
5. Do you have a problem with honesty?
6. How far in debt are you?
7. Are you still lonely, you loner!


Eric you SUCK!!!!

I am an Elder in the Church. I am going to go on a mission for the church and I hope that I end up on your doorstep so that I may take the opportunity to kick you in the Butt. You are a backstabbing slimy son of perdition. May you and all your followers rot in HELL (particularly in perdition's FLAME). The trouble with you is that you have to high of an opinion of your own mind. You know absolutely nothing. Do you seriously beleve that even SATAN would waist his precious time trying to capture your worthless soul? You are the epitomy of stupidity. You might try trying to back up some of your claims with fact. Or you might try backing up over your self!!!

I seriously hope that you never acctually had a testimony of the church. Because if you ever acctually knew that it was true you will be cast into outer darkness with the other sons of perdition.

I sign off wishing you early transmission failure on the express way at abour 4:30 P.M. Also may the flees of a thousand camels infest your armpits!!

P.S.
YOU SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you have the balls to post this message kindly omit the e-mail address. But please send back saying you posted it.
Thank you for your time
Good evening.


One thing that I find interesting is how often the authors of these letters (many of whom appear to be teenagers) utilize the very same argument as Ray. Is this a case of "from the mouths of babes"? Or is this a case of Ray using a juvenile argument? You be the judge!


And you expect me to take this seriously coming from you? After you wiped Dan Peterson's long quotes about what ex-Mormons on RFM and here have said about him? You also called Dan's quotes "juvenile". You completely ignored and dismissed his essay on secular anti-Mormonism.

And what do you think about the term "Nazi Mormons"? Beastie has disowned it, but have you? Are you going to speak out about the use of the term "Nazi Mormon" in your blog, and here? This is all so one-sided. If I wrote, even once, a reference to "Nazi exmos" I would never hear the end of it!

Here is your basic problem, Scratch: You can't leave Mormons alone. You are addicted to bashing them. The reason some Mormons lose their cool and write stuff like this is because they first got attacked. They were replying to the bile in places like RFM. Some exmo is OFFENDED big time because Joseph Smith claimed to restore the "one true Church", so the whole Church is evil. Don't let it bug you bigtime. Leave them alone, and they will leave you alone. And I will say again, your approach to "change" is worthless. MAD is portrayed as a modern Inquisition run by evil and corrupt moderators. Look at how obsessively the MAD board has been portrayed, with a Schindler's List of "victims of purges". The MAD pogroms against MDB posters. Yes, make your "victim" list from the evil Inquisitors and let everyone know how terrible they are. The way some of you go on you'd thing MAD was "the only true board" on the Internet.
_Bond...James Bond
_Emeritus
Posts: 4627
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:49 am

Post by _Bond...James Bond »

Ray A wrote:
You obviously haven't been around for long. I have discussed this on FAIR (before it changed to MAD) many times. I have long been critical of the angry exmo approach, and suggested it could in the future result in violence.


Okay. So how long ago did you post these thoughts over on FAIR/MAD? And have these thoughts come true yet? Has there been (m)any attacks by exmos on Mormons?

This is not the first time. You seem to forget one salient point - Joseph Smith's death was engineered by apostates.


Okay. What does that have to do with angry exmo speech today?
Last edited by Anonymous on Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
_Bond...James Bond
_Emeritus
Posts: 4627
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:49 am

Post by _Bond...James Bond »

Ray A wrote:I place little credibility in the majority of posters here.


You know I felt the same way...when I was on the MAD board.

You are asking me if I read those 300 articles? I was quoting statistics by Midgley, who I think has a good understanding of what anti-Mormon literature is. Other than that, it's very possible I have read most of them, since I've been reading anti-Mormon literature for 24 years. I read the FARMS Review for six years solid, and sporadically after that, and they reviewed most of the anti literature which came out each year. So yes, there's a good chance I've read most of them.


So in other words.....you don't know if you read the stuff. But you take someone else's word on it. Okay.

What have you read about Mormonism - did you study it for the better part of one week?


Yeah. I studied for the better part of one week. It's amazing how much you can pick up at Uncle Scratch's University of Mormon Criticism.


PS: I'd also like to know who the "decent" Mormons on this board are who should abandon the board.
Last edited by Anonymous on Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

Ray,

The day Mormonism stops teaching its bigotry about apostates is the day you can claim exmormons attacked Mormons first.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Bond...James Bond wrote:Okay. So how long ago did you post these thoughts over on FAIR/MAD? And have these thoughts come true yet? Has there been multiple attacks by exmos on Mormons?


They were posted intermittently since about 2005-2006. I did not make specific predictions, I said I felt that the vitriol was excessive and overboard and that people who express themselves in this way seemed unstable and "could do violence" in real life at some future stage. Two weeks ago I was confronted by a customer who used threatening language, but made no actual threats of physical violence. Physical violence does occur in my job. Workmates have been assaulted, and one was robbed recently, at knife point. We have an alarm button to press in such situations, and we have been told NOT to wait until actual violence occurs, but at any signs of untoward verbal aggression. You cannot predict accurately what a person will do, especially when they're drunk or under the influence of drugs. But every driver knows when to activitate the alarm by the verbal expressions of the customer. They do not wait for actual violence. Get the hint? I have seen hateful expressions from some exmos, and I'll tell you straight up I wouldn't want to meet them personally. One on EMS did actually threaten physical violence against me, and although that was not possible since he was in America and I in Australia, I wouldn't want to meet this creep in real life. And I am not even a TBM. I think you know not, Bond. I've been around for quite sometime and I know what I'm talking about. These experiences have led me to be wary, and to write as I am.


Bond...James Bond wrote:Okay. What does that have to do with angry exmo speech today?


You may have missed Dan Peterson's post on the thread "Signs of Recovery", and this may help to understand where I am coming from as well (Fortunately he's far more articulate than I am. The bolded portions are my emphases):

While I can see something of a mob mentality in internet bulletin board behavior, I simply don't believe that a fractured group like an internet discussion board can be persuaded towards physical violence in the same way a crowd could. In other words, I simply don't believe an internet 'mob' would ever have the same power to move people to violence that an actual mob could exert. Hot air exhaled over cyberspace [is a] far different animal from a political movement like National Socialism.

Fortunately, I think you're right. I'm grateful for that. I'm thankful that most threats don't materialize. But that doesn't make such behavior wholly unproblematic, in my view.

In any event, cyber huffing and puffing isn't the only thing out there. Years ago, my friend Todd Compton attended a showing of The God Makers at a megachurch in Covina or West Covina, California. As he reported to me soon afterwards, he found the experience chilling. The speaker on the program, he said, was a masterful demagogue. There was a Mormon stake center just down the street, and, Todd told me, the man had the audience so aroused, and so completely in the palm of his hand, that, had the audience been invited to grab torches and raze the LDS chapel to the ground, Todd was convinced that at least some of them would have done it. He compared what he had seen to Hitler's Nuremberg rallies, and he was quite shaken. Years later, Brent Collette, then the director of the Berkeley LDS Institute, told me of attending a similar event in the Bay area, where the speaker portrayed Mormons as conspiring to establish a theocratic dictatorship in the United States. When an elderly woman sitting right in front of him said, rather loudly, to her husband, "This is just like the Nazis!" Brent leaned forward and said to her, "Yes, and I'm the Jew."

The social fabric is fragile. Again, I'm not paranoid. But I also don't dismiss public expressions of hatred and hostility against religious groups as inevitably meaningless or invariably harmless.


I don't expect Internet mobs to gather, either. But some of the "cyber expressions" reveal the potential for violence in real life situations, as noted above.
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