Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

[Guest]

another person with a following and many wives:

http://www.tonyalamonews.com/189/the-ma ... -alamo.php

[_Jason Bourne]

In Sacred Loneliness


Anti-Mormon polemicists saw polygamy as pure evil. Mormon men were viewed as insidious enslavers of women; polygamous women were seen as helpless, mindless victims. A representative period novel was entitled, Elder Northfield's Home; or, Sacrificed on the Mormon Altar: A Story of the Blighting Curse of Polygamy. After sweeping aside such melodramatic propaganda, one finds that, in actuality, Mormon polygamists, both female and male, were generally sincere, intensely religious, often intelligent and able, and men and women of good will.

See my point now?

http://www.signaturebooks.com/excerpts/ ... troduction

Your point is still not valid. The point is almost ALL women is situations like this, with a strong powerful dynamic male leader, believe that everything was wondrous and fine. The fact that LDS women in plural relationship received an alleged testimony of the "principle" does not make it any less abusive nor the way Joseph seemingly manipulated them into the situation true or from God. Certainly the women who went into this were highly motivated to obtain some sort of witness that it was true.

[_DarkHelmet]

In Sacred Loneliness


Anti-Mormon polemicists saw polygamy as pure evil. Mormon men were viewed as insidious enslavers of women; polygamous women were seen as helpless, mindless victims. A representative period novel was entitled, Elder Northfield's Home; or, Sacrificed on the Mormon Altar: A Story of the Blighting Curse of Polygamy. After sweeping aside such melodramatic propaganda, one finds that, in actuality, Mormon polygamists, both female and male, were generally sincere, intensely religious, often intelligent and able, and men and women of good will.

See my point now?

http://www.signaturebooks.com/excerpts/ ... troduction

You appear to be a strong supporter of polygamy. Would you be in favor of rescinding laws that outlaw it? It seems to be a freedom of religion issue. If the feds hadn't put so much pressure on the church in the 19th century, we may still have this glorious principle being practiced today.

[_why me]

Nonsense, whyme. And you know it. The timing is clear; there is nothing ambiguous about the whole dirty little affair. Joseph got caught with his pants down in a barn with a girl not his wife. No amount of whitewash is going to change that. You can bet your entire exaltation on Joseph's character; I choose to go with the facts. A man with his pants around his ankles in a barn with a girl not his wife isn't one I choose follow to hell. He lost the prophetic mantle the second he played marriage with anyone but Emma. And his subsequent revelations showed that.

God will not be mocked.

I gave you information from the fairwiki. They have a different timeline than you. What would make their argument less valid than yours?

It is all a matter of interpretation. I don't see Joseph Smith as a horny toad as most of the posters on this thread do. I think that many posters are blinded by their own bias interpretations.

I see no examples of abuse in the relationships. Nor do I see a lust connection. And we need to remember that for most of these marriages there were family witnesses and permission was given by a relative.

Now I do think that Joseph Smith was working his way through his own understanding of plural marriage. But there is no question in my mind that he looked upon the whole enterprise as a huge burden. I see enjoyment in this for him at all.

And again posters are comparing Joseph Smith to others and by doing so, making a huge assumption not based on evidence but rather on feelings. Joseph Smith was no Koresh or Jim Jones or any other charleton. I see him as a man in a hurry to do his mission in life. I don't see him having a happy life at all as prophet. Rather I see his life as one big burden as he grew into his prophethood.

In the end, he would have had a much better life without his calling. He would have farmed and led a normal existence...married with children.

[_why me]

In Sacred Loneliness


Anti-Mormon polemicists saw polygamy as pure evil. Mormon men were viewed as insidious enslavers of women; polygamous women were seen as helpless, mindless victims. A representative period novel was entitled, Elder Northfield's Home; or, Sacrificed on the Mormon Altar: A Story of the Blighting Curse of Polygamy. After sweeping aside such melodramatic propaganda, one finds that, in actuality, Mormon polygamists, both female and male, were generally sincere, intensely religious, often intelligent and able, and men and women of good will.

See my point now?

http://www.signaturebooks.com/excerpts/ ... troduction

Your point is still not valid. The point is almost ALL women is situations like this, with a strong powerful dynamic male leader, believe that everything was wondrous and fine. The fact that LDS women in plural relationship received an alleged testimony of the "principle" does not make it any less abusive nor the way Joseph seemingly manipulated them into the situation true or from God. Certainly the women who went into this were highly motivated to obtain some sort of witness that it was true.

You are not exactly paying much of a compliment to the fairer sex are you? I do believe that a feminist would pull your ear for saying so. As my link showed, these women were not wimps. Rather they were strong willed and strong minded. Joseph Smith would not nor could not pull the wool over their eyes for very long.

I don't think that those women who obtained a witness were motivated to do so. I do think that they would have rather receive no witness at all. They prayed for guidence after refusing and received a witness. What more is there to say about it?

You don't need to like it but that still doesn't change it.

[_why me]

Why me -

You made a very specific argument. The argument was that polygamy was so dangerous to the longterm prospects of a religion, no religious fraudster would engage in it unless they believed they were genuinely obligated to do so by God or they were a complete idiot.

I find this argument inane and, as it happens, humorous given the following:

1) It is extremely common for charismatic leaders of new religious movements to rearrange how sexual relationships happen in their group in a way that is out of step with the surrounding social norms and is likely to antagonize them. That's the core issue of your argument, however...

2) It likewise is common for that rearranging to involve the male leader getting access to multiple female partners.

I don't find it inane at all. I think that the assumptions now being made about Joseph Smith to be inane. I see the whole Joseph Smith not a part here or a part there. I see the whole man. I see him with a mission to do and to full. I see him with a job to do and he did it at the cost of his own life. And in the end, his plural wives and emma paid him tribute and were sad that he was murdered. I think that his plural wives saw him as a prophet not because he had charisma but because of the work that he brought forth: the Book of Mormon and the restoration. Now he was not perfect and he certainly did not seem the prophet to everyone. But he certainly garnered faith of many people who believed in him. In the end, he was perhaps one of greatest religious leaders in American history and in the history of the world. He actually revolutionized christianity and brought christianity into new directions. But he was also a polarizing figure because of the work he was bringing forth. And in the end the Mormon church is a good church that teaches wonderful family values and lovely ways to live life to get closer to god. And in the end that can only make the world a better place.

[_Dr. Shades]

another person with a following and many wives:

http://www.tonyalamonews.com/189/the-ma ... -alamo.php

I read that link. In spite of taking several extra wives, one as young as 11, Tony Alamo does not show signs of horny toadism with his plural wives nor do his wives ever mention the fact that he did not care for them but was in it only for the sex.

Let's face it: If he were a fraud why go the polygamy route? It seems mighty stupid to me. Clearly, this guy is no Koresh or Jim Jones or any other charlatan.

[_why me]

Beastie almost got it right except she left out one major detail. As she explained there was little enjoyment in all this.

How do you know?

I have the same reference point that the posters have on this thread: my gut instinct. But my instinct is correct. Not to mention an understanding of sexuality and how it works in real life. Too much going on to have a wonderful moment in the hay with a plural wife.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Why Me,

It is all a matter of interpretation. I don't see Joseph Smith as a horny toad as most of the posters on this thread do. I think that many posters are blinded by their own bias interpretations.

No actually, pretty much everyone who doesn't need to believe in Joseph Smith puts Joseph Smith in the same category of all the other powerful religious/cult leaders who claim God wants them to screw girls and women. (As I wrote earlier, I'm guessing you would not be quite so passive or accepting of this practice if a guy down the street made the same claims as did Joseph Smith to your daughter and wife along with lots of other middle school girls, high school girls, and married women). Apologists are the ones who give Joseph Smith a free pass and treat him differently than others who engage in the same behavior. They are the ones who make all sorts of exceptions for Joseph Smith when in truth, again, this practice of claiming God wants these guys to have sex with all sorts of girls and women is common, perhaps the norm for powerful cult and religious leaders.

I see no examples of abuse in the relationships. Nor do I see a lust connection. And we need to remember that for most of these marriages there were family witnesses and permission was given by a relative.

A powerful married, thirty something year old man who coerces and manipulates children for his sexual pleasure is abusive. Call it what you will, make whatever excuses you wish, it is sexual abuse. And, as has been pointed out numerous times, virtually ALL girls and women who are attached to powerful religious/cult leaders believe they are called of God to have sex with their leader. The "wives" of Joseph Smith are just like the "wives" of Warren Jeffs, or any other powerful cult leader.

Now I do think that Joseph Smith was working his way through his own understanding of plural marriage. But there is no question in my mind that he looked upon the whole enterprise as a huge burden. I see enjoyment in this for him at all.

Are you saying Joseph Smith didn't find enjoyment in bedding all these girls and young women? Hmmm... I think you are wrong about this.

I'm still wondering why God cares, let alone commands men to have sex with multiple girls and women. It really baffles me.

Now, if the practice was really just about some sort of family relationship in the next life there would be no need for secrecy, so again, what does it say about God that he is commanding, (with angel and drawn sword no less) a man to have sex with multiple girls and women? Why is God so interested in the sex lives of Joseph Smith & co.?

And again posters are comparing Joseph Smith to others and by doing so, making a huge assumption not based on evidence but rather on feelings. Joseph Smith was no Koresh or Jim Jones or any other charleton. I see him as a man in a hurry to do his mission in life. I don't see him having a happy life at all as prophet. Rather I see his life as one big burden as he grew into his prophethood.

The only reason you think Joseph Smith is different than the other men who claim God is desirous for them to have sex with all sorts of girls and women is because you want to believe he is somehow different. You don't seem to be able to see that he is like the other men who make the same claims.

In the end, he would have had a much better life without his calling. He would have farmed and led a normal existence...married with children.

I don't see any indication that Joseph Smith was one who would have enjoyed being a farmer. in my opinion, he didn't demonstrate love for Emma (as evidence by his behavior not a letter or two), nor did he seem like he was all that great of a father or much interested in his children.

In fact, I think he thrived on his power and all the benefits that came with it.

[_Pokatator]

I have the same reference point that the posters have on this thread: my gut instinct. But my instinct is correct.

Are you a prophet, too? Self-proclaimed authority? I will call it arrogance.

Not to mention an understanding of sexuality and how it works in real life.

It is nice to know that everyone on this board knows nothing about sexuality and how it works in real life except you. Again I will call that arrogance.

Too much going on to have a wonderful moment in the hay with a plural wife.

Bullfeathers, I suppose that presidents, athletes, and CEO's are all too busy to have extramarital affairs. Joe must have been the busiest guy in the whole wide world. WhyMe you are no sharper than a bowling ball but a whole lot denser.